Honesty and the Navy-Medical/ADD/ADHD and other full disclosure issues PRIOR to taking the oath

[Angie F.- WA: HM mom]

Hi ladies, our brief discussion on this Group about this subject was so good and informative that I decided to make it a permanent discussion. I've done a cut and paste below of all the moms original replies and posts so that future DEPPERS and experienced moms can also benefit and contribute. Let's save our DEPPERs from being pressured to lie and omit by dishonest, pushy Recruiters and then having their dreams come crashing down later at the BC "Moment of Truth! Honesty really is the best policy here!! :-)

By the way, I DO recognize that there are plenty of good recruiters out there who do not follow this practice and do a good job getting our Recruits started on their journey. =)

FYI:Here is the Dept. Of Defenses' Medical Examination Review Boards' Disqualification code list to give everyone an idea of what they will be looking for honesty- and can request further information and records-about:

https://dodmerb.tricare.osd.mil/MiscMenuItems/disqualcodes.asp

Here's another link and excerpt from a post by Achseh about fraudulent enlistment in Hoppi's Enlistment Standards discussion featured on N4Ms main page:


http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/falsestatements.htm

Lying to Get Into the Military is a Felony

Let's get straight to the point. Knowingly giving false information or withholding required information on any recruiting form is a criminal offense (When the information would have made an individual ineligible to enlist, or would have required a waiver to enlist). It's not a misdemenor, it's not the same as getting a speeding ticket. It's a felony offense, punishable by a $10,000 fine and three years in prison. If you lie to get into the military, you are committing a felony. It's that simple. If you get away with it long enough to actually enlist, and are caught later, it's also a "military offense." You can be prosecuted for a violation of Article 83 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), which states:

"Any person who--

(1) procures his own enlistment or appointment in the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his qualifications for that enlistment or appointment and receives pay or allowances thereunder; or

(2) procures his own separation from the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his eligibility for that separation; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Elements.

(1) Fraudulent enlistment or appointment.


(a) That the accused was enlisted or appointed in an armed force;

(b) That the accused knowingly misrepresented or deliberately concealed a certain material fact or facts regarding qualifications of the accused for enlistment or appointment;

(c) That the accused’s enlistment or appointment was obtained or procured by that knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment; and

(d) That under this enlistment or appointment that accused received pay or allowances or both. "

[brenda (Brandon's Mom) lain]

Unfortunately this same thing happened to my s.a. We had no idea that the recruiter or even the officers doing the official physical would encourage my son to lie about his anxiety and treatment for a.d.h.d. He has been d]q' ed and i am livid. I did not raise my son to be a liar and I don't appreciate the recruiter encouraging him to do so, and I told my son this. So when he hit boot camp, he told them the truth. How can we repair the damage done by the recruiter? We followed the recruiters instructions because obviously he knows more about the Navy than we do. My recruit had a rough couple of days but joined the other recruits in basic training but because of this he was pulled and sent home. We are seeking treatment for the issues he needs to face but would love to have some direction on how to handle this from here. Both my sailor who wants nothing more than to be an productive part of the military and myself are even more determined to remedy this so that he can go back and when he and I work together, we are a force not to be taken lightly. Help ladies, any tips? Do we start stepping on heads are start the process over?

[Paulette - NROTC mom]

Hi Brenda-

I feel so much for you and your son. We put so much faith in the "folks who know the military" better than we do thinking they would never violate those oaths they took. Hard lessons learned. It sounds like you sailor was discharged and is out and home- right? Starting over? I doubt that would be successful. Was he discharged as just medically disqualified with no mention of lying on his form? That would be crucial. Unfortunately I'm afraid in the end it will come down to a case of "he said- he said". Everything I've read ends up with - it's your son's signature on the form so he is the responsible party :( .

There is a long section earlier in this thread that speaks to this issue. You can try contacting his recruiter's superior- maybe they have had problems before. If you really want to stomp on heads you could always bounce the idea off an attorney but I don't know how far you would get and lord know what that would cost :o

Best of luck-
kgrmom

[Jofsra]

Hi Ladies,

I have good/bad news. I continued in my pursuit of an answer to the medical waiver for my son since he had been to a counselor a couple of times. He never received any medicine and is fine. However, the recruiter my son had insisted several times that because he was in the Navy and I was just a parent that he knew more and that I simply had to trust him that everything was okay because this had occurred before the age of 15.

My son listened to my concerns and I showed him this discussion and other places where it explained that he would get in trouble and have possible adverse consecuences if this was not stated in his forms for the Navy. I insisted he needed a medical waiver. He gave me the RINC direct cell number and I tried for several weeks to get ahold of him. The RINC would text message my son and say things like:

"If I talk to your mom, I can't help you and then you can not enlist"
"If I talk to your mom you will not have a future in the Navy, because you will never qualify"
"There aren't any jobs, so if you still want to be a part of the Navy I can't talk to your mom"

What this man did not know is that I have always taught my children to have "backup plans" in case plans are not going the way you like...and therefore you have seem possible options beforehand and can live with making a different choice if need be.

I continued "badgering" this RINC...until my son, frustrated because there was not an answer being provided began to suspect that what I was saying was right! He stopped by the recruiter's office and was informed that he could not enlist anymore because of having attended counseling sessions! That he had to "figure out" what he was going to do with the rest of his life, because I had brought this issue up, so in the Navy's view it was MY fault he couldn't enlist!!!

Talk about passing the puck!!! My son then informed them that I had taught him better than that. He explained that he knew he could get a medical waiver and was willing to wait 8-10 months, with a new date and job if need be. That in the meantime he would attend one of the colleges he was admitted to and work, instead of sitting at home.

Both the recruiter and RINC were put out with this response when they realized the scare tactics were not working! Then they told him not to bother trying to enlist because the Navy was full and didn't have time for someone who was not serious!

My son came home quite upset and is now registered to take college classes this fall. I did call the RINC and asked him why he decided to put my son through this situaton which could have been avoided if the paperwork had been filled out properly a couple of months ago. His statement was:

"It is like the don't ask, don't tell policy. When a recruit joins the Navy they begin with a brand new medical record, making everything that happened before null and void." I could not believe my ears!!

Then I stated: So if my son had needed additional clearance and this would have come out later, would he be in danger of being dishonorably discharged?

He responded with: "Yes that is always a possibility, but the Navy never really researches into old medical files"

When I explained to him where I had gotten my information and asked him if everyone else had lied, including the military's website. His response was to say again...that no one would have known, if I had not stated anything!

My final question to him was:

So how much money are you both losing out on since he is not a recruit anymore? He would not reply, of course....but my parting shot was:

This is your fault since I know the Navy does not advocate this kind of behavior. This was your greed and desperation, this is not my fault or my son's since we are the ones asking for an answer and trying to correct an error.

My son says he might in the future consider the Navy, but through a different recruiter and he is quite happy with not having negative consecuences. He is still upset with the attempted coverups and the way the recruiters tried to avoid responsibilty for any of this. He is also upset about not being able to follow his plan, but knows that later he will be able to do so with a clear conscience.

I will miss being here, but please use this and be persistent if you know you are right! Thank you ladies for all of your help and support.

[Paulette - NROTC mom]

Hi Jofstra- OMG I am just reading your story and it's leaving me ready to pace around the room and start swearing like a crazy person. Just where do they get off with this stuff ... and then to tell your son that it will be all his mother's fault !?! Talk about pyschological BS tactics. I commend you for being able to get through to your son even though it uprooted his plans for now. For so many boys, especially at such a young age it wouldn't happen that way. What a great kid you have :) :) It could be just a temporary delay if the Navy is what he wants. These guys in that recruiting office are definitely not who you want him to be dealing with. I read it somewhere (maybe even on this board) that MOMS outrank everybody, even Admirals and the Navy knows that. I've already told my daughter that once and she had to agree. It was when I called her Lt. about something and she found out about it later and chewed me out for it- lol. Hang in there . Maybe you can use the following info ?:


"You can help stop this unlawful practice by making an official complaint. Understand that making an official complaint may not result in prosecution of the recruiter (it depends upon how much evidence there is), but it will darn sure make sure that the recruiter's supervisors are aware that something wrong might be going on. That's the only way they can correct a problem situation (or a problem recruiter). If you can somehow locate the address or phone number of the recruiter's immediate commander, that's the best place to make your complaint. If not, you can write to the following: "

Navy Inspector General
COMNAVCRUITCOM Code 0015722 Integrity Dr
Bldg 768
Millington, TN 38054

[Margaret, 1 Sailor, 1 Recruit]

What do I do if my son was on medication, but was misdiagonsed? His last doctor says that the first one misdiagnosed him. He said that in his professional opinion, my son did not suffer from the illness diagnsed from the previous doctor. Should my son contact that doctor and get it in writing. He is set to ship out to BC in Nov.

[Paulette - NROTC mom]

Hi Denise-
Do they really go back "that far"? Yes- they do. Sorry to say.
If I were you and/or him I would be a little worried- sorry to say that to ! Maybe it's a good thing though that you are catching it now. He hasn't shipped out yet- maybe you could start by contacting his recruiter and explain what has happened? I would also get a letter from his Dr. explaining that those situations were exactly what you said they were - misdiagnosis and "overzealous parenting". Otherwise it comes down to just his word against his medical file and you don't want that.

The worst case is they find all this later ... and he won't be discharged because of these incidents. He will be discharged because he did not disclose them.. and they call that falsifying his record and/or lying. You will have no argument for that one. I know that's probably a crummy answer and not the one you are looking for. -
Maybe someone else has a better one- Paulette

[Denise]

Well I have to confess I posted this for a friend of mine who's son has been in for a year, she was a bit nervous about posting and registering here. She isn't exactly a computer person. I looked on my contract (she doesn't have a copy)and it states "Have you in the last 7 years seen a Psychiatrist, Psychologist, Counselor". Since he was 15 and is now 25 (24 at the time) it was more then 7 years, and even longer for the misdiagnosed ADD.

So apparently it isn't an age thing, it's a time lapse thing.

[Gail (James' Proud Mom AZ)]

Hi Everyone! I have been going through this with my son. A recruitor told him not to put anything about his head injury on his paperwork. "if there isn't a scare then no one is going to find out about it". I sent my other son in with my son and they were told the same thing. I even asked about this. Well the straw that broke the camels back is when the NCI told another recruite about my son's head injury, in the office when my son was there. They were laughing at the whole thing (not a laughing matter) But I started getting real upset. My son asked them what happened to "between me and the NAVY". Not knowing about the HIPPA laws. Well I started calling and getting people on the line. I wanted answers. A lie is a lie, and if you get to Boot Camp and at the Moment of Truth, don't disclose everything, then it's on you, no one else. You could be discharged with a R4, which is very bad, you could loose out on great jobs because of this. So I finally got a new recruitor for my son. The others are being investigated, which who know how far that will go. But the new office is so understanding and is working with us to clean this mess up. Now when my son goes for his MOMENT OF TRUTH and is asked if he has disclosed everything, he can say "YES" and have a clear mind about it.

DON'T lie, don't let anyone tell you to lie, stand up for yourself and tell the truth. Because when push comes to shove, it's going to be your name on the line, no one else. If you haven't gone into Boot Camp yet, Tell someone, tell everyone what you left off. Yes, you might not get to go into the NAVY, but it's better than having your name dishonored and life altered where you can't hold a good job.

One of the hardest things was convinceing my son that I wasn't doing this to keep him here with me. We fought all the time, yelling and crying. He really thought I was trying to destroy his career choice of joining the NAVY. I had to call a friend that was in the NAVY and they talked for over 3 hours and finally my son figured out that I wasn't doing this to keep my little boy home, I was doing it to keep his name in good standing. I had ordered banners for him, one that said "We will miss you" and two that say "Welcome Home" Well I showed them to him the day they came in. We both cried, me because I watched his face, that look of shock. Him because he finally knew that I didn't want to make the choice for him, I backed him in his choice, I only wanted to keep him safe.

So 'TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH' No matter what anyone else tells you to do, no matter how small you think it is, If the NAVY wants to find out something, they will, and that's where you had better be up front from the start! All we have is our good names......keep it that way!

[scrapndian]

The discussion on ADD/ADHD caught my attention so I decided to check it out. My son was diagnosed when he was young but has not been on medication since 2007. I can remember his recruiter asking me when he stopped taking meds. I assumed that was included on his paperwork. When I asked my son what the recruiter said about his ADHD, he told me the recruiter said not to put it down since he has been off meds for two years. I asked him to come read the discussion on ADHD and of course he went into the defense mode. I ask him to call his recruiter to find out how he can change this and he did not answer ! I do not want him to get "separated". He knows better. He's an Eagle Scout and has always been truthful. I think his recruiter has him convinced that no harm will come to him !

[Debbie H. (Casey & Kelly)]

Scrapndian...Your son has to disclose EVERYTHING!!!!!! My son is on his way home after 1.5 weeks in boot camp. He was having stomach problems, went to medical and has an old ulcer that is acting up. They asked for his medical records and way back from when he was 14 was a one-time incident with an ulcer. His recruiter told him not to mention it on his app and he didn't. It has come back to bite him and now his is medically discharged with a RE4 code for fraudulent entry. His Navy career that he wanted so badly is over before it has begun. The recruiters that do this suck. The sad part is that our kids really do look up to them and trust that they are getting solid advice. Double check everything and be there anytime any, and I mean ANY signatures are needed.

[scrapndian]

Debbie H....Thanks sooooo much for your reply. I have talked to my son and he is going back to his recruiter with the info I have provided to him. And I just found out that one of my scout moms' daughter is coming back from the Army because of an asthma attack, which she hasn't had since a very young age ! Her daughter is devastated !!!!!

[sonj]

What if a parent has a criminal backround? Does that affect an enlistment? The child does not know of this. What do they do? Do they talk to the recruiter and disclose upfront? They would never lie but i think it would crush their son.Any suggestions?