Undesignated...What's Up With That?

Angie, when I was in the Navy, "Controlled ratings" were the ratings that were 90 percent closed.

Legally, there is the civil sided and the criminal side of the issue of recruiters lying to recruits. On the civil side, the tort law is that the contract is null and void because thru the Navy recruiter, the Navy bargained in bad faith. Since that happened prior to the recruits entry in the Navy, it causes some interesting results.

First, the sailor is more truthfully a civilian because he does not have a valid contract with the Navy.

Second, because he was lied to as a civilian prior to entering the Navy it is actionable in Federal circuit courts.

Third, the recruiter has committed a felony under Federal law as well as under state law in most states.

Fourth, any convictions of the civilian/sailor and any discharges for misconduct are null and void due to the null and void contract.

I could go on, but hopefully someone in the Navy brass will get the message.

kadikaboom626. Oddly, the persons with the worst attitudes weren't the undesignated sailors. The people with the worst attitudes about doing real work were sailors that had everything handed to them in a highly specialized "A" school.

It is odd how things work out sometimes.

While working twelve hour a day seven days a week shifts, and sometimes 24 hour shifts, and sometimes 72 hour shifts, I studied 4-5 hours a night to get into the rating of my choice rather than the Navy's choice. Then, I beat 70 percent of the "A" school graduates in some categories on the rating exam, 80 percent in some of the other areas, and 90 percent in a few areas.

I'm not the only one who has done it.

Angie, have you ever heard the legal term "breach of contract?"

By lying the recruiters are committing felonies and may be prosecuted in the civilian courts or the Navy courts. The civilian courts have jurisdiction because the recruit was not in the Navy when he/she was lied to.

The sailors do not forfeit their civil rights when they enter into the Navy with a valid contract. Legally, they cannot enter into the Navy without a valid contract. That's why the lies of the recruiter invalidate the contract, just like lies of the recruit would invalidate the contract.

If for some reason the sailors with a contract are "tricked" to sign forms that appear to negate the original contract, the deceit itself is a violation of the contract and is legal evidence that may be used against the Navy in a court of law.

If for some reason the Navy or the sailor are unable to meet the requirements under the legal contract, then the contract itself must be renegotiated because it has become null and void.

For most non-designated sailors, the best course of action is to honor their end of the contract even if it is null and void to preserve their G.I.Bill benefits that will be useful later.

An interesting thing to consider is that because the Navy recruiters are encouraged, trained, and ordered to lie, and since it has been going on for more than a century, the statute of limitations do not apply.

I think the unhappiest moms are the the moms whose sons go "undesignated."

What a worthless, thankless path.

Recruiters, to me, are as sleazy as Used Car Salesmen.

In my last post I sure was negative, while I am disappointed in the process. I will say my son has handled it very well and continues to work hard and stay positive. My point in my last post was to simply say, I want the misleading to stop and not sure if it ever will. I agree with Angie, they don`t lie the just don`t tell the truth. With that being said, I am hopeful that my son along with other young men and women learn from there experiences and make that lemonade... I am proud of my son for sticking in there working hard  and staying positive as he continues his journey in the Navy.....I have had my share of shit work in my time so I guess nothing is perfect..

I have to agree Ellen65, I don't know why everyone thinks that things should be handed to them without working for it. They should just be glad they have a job. 4 years is not that long to be miserable if you choose to.LOL!  

My daughter went in undesignated 6 years ago, was it easy? no.....she had to wait her turn and do what she needed to do. She has reenlisted and is thinking of doing it again in 2 years.

Was on here back then, Yes, just about everyday........this site is a wonderful place to be. One thing i have learned is that we are just Moms on the outside looking for bits and pieces of information from each other to make us feel better. In reality our Sailors will figure it out, that is part of the process, find out out you need to do and do it, might not work out exactly the way you planned the first time, so try again or make another choice. 

I really don't know what a recruiter is suppose to say, other "Kid, join the navy undesignated, we will pay you for 4 years while you are trying to figure out what you want and what you can do, if it doesn't work out, you are free to leave."

Because each sailor is different, they have different scores, commands, ships, etc.....one path that works out for one sailor will not work for another. So I think they generalize it and sometime people hear what they want to hear.

Angie;

    Thank you for your service. Don't take it personally. Recruiters at all corporations lie. That includes the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Army.

    The best advice you can give someone with a Master's degree is to apply for OCS if that's what they still call it.

    If I'm the judge, I'm following precedent and that is that the oral contract overrides the written contract. Likewise, be advised that Navy attorney's are like civilian attorney's in that they add language that tries to protect their client to the disadvantage of the other contracting party and so they leave evidence that the Navy is bargaining in bad faith in the contract itself.

     You yourself, in trying to defend the interests of the Navy, have made statements here that could be used against the Navy in a court of law.

     The Navy does benefit from the fact that most sailors know they are asking for trouble trying to sue. The Navy would immediately attack them and claim they are liars and unpatriotic.

     Essentially, you yourself are accusing the enlistees of lying in trying to defend the recruiters; that's another mistake.

    However, the biggest mistake most sailors make is not reading the contract. Trusting the person in uniform is the most common mistake recruits make. Of course, they are very young and all their life they have been taught the people in uniform are the good guys. The recruiters definitely take advantage of that and what they promise is not what they deliver in many cases.

    Like I said, the Navy is foolish to believe the non-rates will not compare stories. My analysis when I was in the Navy showed that 75 percent of the non-rates made the mistake of not reading the papers before they signed them and the papers did not contain what they were promised.

   We can't fix the problem by trying to cover it up, by blaming the recruits, by denying it, etc.

   In fact, the best way to fix the problem is to get the mothers and fathers to chew out the Admirals.

Angie;

    Due to my standing, I am not allowed to advise them not to sue nor to advise them to sue in this forum.

    Due to my standing I am required to report all felonies I am made aware of to an officer of the court.

    I do like you Angie and I am just trying to help the moms.

    I do believe we can agree putting a bull's eye on their back is not a good thing for a sailor to do in the Navy. However, it is fun to chew out an Admiral.

   I do believe it is harmful to the Navy to allow, encourage, or order recruiters to lie.

23lindy....we are only happy as our kids our.  If their path happens to be not as successful as some other sailors then of course we are going to gripe.

For some enlistees perhaps going Undesignated is the best way to go. Because who knows what they want to be when they grow up!  And for some enlistees (male or female) they have an agenda....set goals and start reaching them right from the get go.    Good for them.

Let us vent.  Let us grieve. Let us cry. Let us laugh.  And, above else.....Let us try to help and support one another. 

I second that amen!

I ABSOLUTELY third that AMEN!!  100% Up&Down! 

Up&Down, from your previous posts it sounds like we have a lot in common, feel free to PM me and we can compare notes....I'm pretty sure we are on the same page!

And NavyBrat, thank you so much for all the information...its definitely a breath of fresh air and very interesting reading....I especially like this statement:  " We can't fix the problem by trying to cover it up, by blaming the recruits, by denying it, etc.".....yet another, AMEN! 

Hi Navy Family!  My boyfriend was recently dropped from his A School program.  He is now classified as undesignated.  I've been trying to read up on it to get a better idea of the road ahead; however, if anyone can outline what I should expect I'd greatly appreciate it!  I'm new to the Navy lifestyle, but I would love to get information about his new path, so I can support him better.  Thanks!

I think we can all agree that there are fine men and women serving as recruiters. I think Angie is an example of a good recruiter. She is an honest person too.

Her chosen career path is an honorable one as well. I do agree things have changed since I've been in the Navy. Indeed, they merged the AX and AQ ratings into the AT rating and of course they created an IT rating.

I guess it never occurred to them that the AT's and ET's were the first people to begin programming the PC's and servers in the fleet. It was a natural fit. Besides we were purchasing them ourselves and bringing them on the ships to make our jobs easier.

Flowers, as long as your boyfriend stays out of trouble, works hard, and refuses to let things get him down, he'll do ok. Remind him to take pride in doing the best job he can even when he is doing the work no one else wants to do. Remind him not to take insults personally and that if he doesn't let insults bother him, he is the one who wins.

Also, tell him the non-rates (undesignated sailors) watch out for one another and refer to the ricky PO's from the "A" schools as rent-a-crows.

Likewise, remind him that in an argument or fight between a non-rate and a rated person, the command tends to side with the rated person so watch out for that.

Essentially, the Navy has spent quite a bit of money and time training the "A" school graduates and  virtually nothing training the non-rates, so you can guess from that, right?

As a non-rate in the fleet, I performed the duties of nine of the top ten high asbestos exposure occupations often at the same time.

     Angie, as you and I both know, their are many fine women and men serving as officers and enlisted men in the Armed Forces. In fact, I think we can both agree the majority are in that category and the truly bad apples are few in number.

    I'm sure wed can both agree we served with some very fine men and women. I did not mean to "accuse" you of anything. In fact, I am proud of you. You are doing a good job replying to me. Only a few minor missteps.

    Population size on an Aircraft Carrier is larger than most. Add boot camp, talks with sailors from other ships, etc and the sampling population starts adding up. However, the first thing you learn in statistics class in college, is that statistics lie.

    If you had been a recruiter, Angie, the enlistees would have been happy to have had you as their recruiter. I'm sure you would have been one of the good ones.

    Regarding the command siding with the rated over the non-rated I saw it happen too often to count. In fact, I've seen the person supposed to be representing an enlisted non-rate chew him out worse than the CO before the CO convicted him at Captain's Mast. It routinely happened at Captain's Mast. In fact, we joked about it onboard as proof the non-rates had to protect their own.

   I wore many hats in the Navy including Master-At-Arms Petty Officer, Firefighter, Aviation Electronics Technician Petty Officer, Leading Airman, Lead Mechanic, Security Leader, Safety Leader, non-rate gopher, non-rate fall guy, non-rate expendable, etc. And when I did make rate in the career of my choice, many of the "A" school graduates in the rating still regarded me as a non-rate outsider and not their equal, even the ones I beat on the test.

In the civilian world I've worn many hats as well and I am still active in many fields.

For example, Hardware/Systems Engineer, Computer Architect, Software Engineer, Mechanic, Political Scientist, Historian, Computer Scientist, Logician, Legal Researcher, Computer/Systems Analyst, and Detective are some of the fields I am or have worked in.

Angie, I spent my entire time in the fleet. How much time have you spent in the fleet?

Angie;

     You are a true sailor. Glad to hear you are not a wog.

     It is hard to find the right words sometimes. After all, we don't want to increase their anxiety level, but at the same time if we try to sugar coat everything they won't believe us.

    Likewise, with the right choice of words we can help them guide their sailors and hopefully, keep their sailors alive.

    Probably the best advice I can give them about port calls is that if you don't want to get into any trouble, don't bring it of the base or off the ship with you. Let trouble find trouble all by itself.

'd like to share with you all my exictement for my son Andrew on making Petty Officer 3rd Class.  For being in the service these past 22 months his accomplishments have been many.  Along with Petty Officer he went from Undesignated to Yeoman while also completing  6 online college courses towards his degree that he had started prior to joining the Navy.  He has come such a long way from joining the Navy as "undesignated".   So many things I have to be Thankful for this Thanksgiving Season.

A big Thank you to our servicemen and women and their families for their service. 

My son became a petty officer third class in November too.  I am so proud of him and what he has accomplish shed during his time in the Navy.  I can't believe to even understand the pain the moms are in whose sons died last week in the helio accident.  My prayers are with them all.

My son is APACT PIR of Nov 1st 2013.

My son started in submarines but had to leave that program.  He will be surface undes for one year this May.  He is hoping to strike a rate that involves A school.  From the posts on this group. I have gotten the impression that his attempts will be futile, that is, undes do not get chosen for A schools.  Can anyone give me data to suggest otherwise?  Did any of your undes sailors strike  a rating that required A school and get it?  I want to give him advice based on current evidence, not something from 20 years ago.

JAS-WA. Do search on Navy OJT and look at the e.how.com site.

Most non-designated sailors will not be sent to A school though.

Many ratings do not require A school so there is no need to attend the A school to get into the rating.

I worked my twelve hour a day 7 day a week assigned duties, then studied 5-6 hours a night during my free time to make rate. When I wasn't studying, I was in an OJT program working in the rating of my choice, on my own time. Typically the OJT would last 2-3 hours at a time.

The OJT was how you got around the requirement of an A school for the rating.

kadikaboom626. Most non-designated sailors will never be sent to an A school.

Successful completion of an A school makes the sailor a designated striker in the rating. He/she is entitled to wear the emblem of that rating even before becoming a Petty Officer in the field.

Most non-designated sailors will not be designated until they actually pass the petty officer exam and get advanced to petty officer. Some ratings will permit them to wear the emblem as designated strikers when they pass the correspondence course and receive permission from their commanding officer to be designated in the rating. Typically, that happens in the ratings that don't even have A schools.

The info may be old but the Navy doesn't change very fast.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navyjoin/a/jobops.-ur5.htm

As in most organizations, there will be older sailors who preferred the old ways.  IF they entered undesignated themselves, they'll be a good resource for non-rates to rely on. They'll at least be able to point your son or daughter in the right direction.

I think Navy recruiters should encourage recruits to retake the ASVAB before enlisting. Since they are using it to determine a recruit's eligibility for Navy schools, they should at least be certain the recruit has taken it to the best of his/her ability.

For most of us, the ASVAB was administered to us as just another standardized test we were forced to take and didn't care about when we took it.

Sailors currently serving in the Navy may request to take the ASVAB and will be allowed to retake it.

Apparently, the Navy has college course linked OJT programs now too.

Today, many colleges and universities offer courses online, so sailors may take classes remotely.

NavyBrat....certainly a high score on the ASVAB is most impressive when one strikes for a rate.  However, not all is fair with the Navy I am finding.

My son not only scored high on the ASVAB but has a college education as well.

When his journey in the Navy was cut short....unfortunately there were no rates available at the time to strike for so hence he went undesignated just like the other men in my son's situation.

You would think that the Navy would snatch these educated men and put them where they excel in but no....that's not the case.

Undesignated is a shit area of the Navy. Any mom reading this with a son or daughter enlisting please do not let them go in as undesignated.  They are the low order of the Navy and other crew men and women look down on them.

When they are able to strike for a rate, just remember that there are loads of other sailors striking for the same rate.  It sounds like it's very hard for sailors to move up.

I am in need of some help/ direction. My son has been in the Navy for 2 years as undesignated. Since that time he has tried several times to get an A school only to be turned down. He is very depressed, he was given medication for depression a few months ago. As he continues to have difficulty by those who are above him. The depression is getting worse and he has mentioned several times that he has been thing of ways to hurt himself, he has had several break downs. He has been thinking about jumping off the ship, knowing that they will never find him. It seems to me that know one is listening, I don`t know what to do for him. I am looking for direction. I have been begging him not to hurt himself.. If anyone has suggestions please advise....

Hello cutepups...the best thing I would recommend is remind him that the navy is not life...its just a stint that he has to go through, and I would recommend getting out of the navy ASAP and re-starting life.  It sounds like he has already done 2 years, he doesn't have long to go until he can elect to get out and start again...and unfortunately I don't have any good news for an undes seaman...my husband was undes for 2 years as well and hated every minute of it, people are really awful to the undes no matter what (and my husband even has a PhD....and the captain knew about it, didn't matter, still wasted his time painting and doing jobs that didn't matter).  A few people on his ship were good, his chief and div O, thank God, but the rest were horrible.  My best advice....tell him to get out of the navy as soon as he can and start thinking of a new life, get him excited about new career options for him to think about while he waits to get out.  And I 100% agree with Up&down's comment earlier as well, if we would have known, my hubbs would have never have signed up as undes

Cutepups .... my heart goes out to you and your son.  In any situation when someone shares that they are considering hurting themselves, or worse, taking their own life, we cannot know how close they are to taking any action, or if they are seriously crying out for help.  My immediate response is one of seeking help for your dear son as soon as possible.  He needs an advocate on the ship.  I would write my Ombudsman Team and ask them for immediate connection to the ship's chaplain.  Whether your son is religious or not, the chaplain can talk with him and be an ear that he might not find elsewhere.  If no one is listening, and the depression is getting worse, combined with suggests of harm, you must act on his behalf.  I would not hesitate to find someone on that ship (the chaplain) who can provide him guidance, a listening ear, a compassionate heart, and any other professional help he might require.  Please consider this, and please let us know what you decide and what efforts are being made for him.  He deserves better than to be lost at sea, metaphorically or actually.  My heart aches for him.  Please contact them today .... you should have email, phone, something for contact information for them.  Sending him oceans of love to surround him in his dark days.

Cutepups,

The advice from AJ is wonderful.  I hope you take her advice.

My son was undesignated also.  He joined March of 2012.  Only recently he became a Yeoman. He had his share of disappointments.  What kept him going was taking online college courses (that the Navy pays for)  he volunteered with the Chaplain.  Most recently he has been taking sailing lessons (offered at a Mariana in San Diego)  He has not deployed since he's been in the Navy.  My advice is that he tries to do positive activity that will make him feel good about himself and talk with the Chaplain!

God bless him and watch over him.

Oh boy, I read your post cutepups and I'm shivering.

As parents in this day and age I think we all worry about the  "S" word.  It has nothing to do with the Navy.  

I am watching my son play out his four years in the Navy.  His first path didn't materialize and he too reached a very low emotional ebb.  He is now undesignated and just hoping that something will come up to get him out of this hell hole. I said to him that the Navy is no different than life in the working world.  Many raises and promotions are given to men & women in the corporate world that are not deserving of them.  It's how you handle these blows that makes you a better person (and more respected).  And, ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING!!!!!!

Our children have to be their own advocates.  If they are mopping floors on a ship or cleaning toilets then (like I told my son)  "you be the best gd toilet cleaner there ever was!"

Now with that in mind, I pray that all our children find happiness within themselves and in life.  Our children's feelings are real.  They are asking for validation of those feelings (which we should give them and acknowledge) but also encourage & stress to them life is not always fair...Don't mope and be your own advocate.  Sell yourself.  And thank God that it's only 4 years so it's not permanent. 

And yes....so very proud of all the men & women who have joined the military. No matter what they do.

My son initially went to DEPS thinking he was going to sign a contract for Master of Arms.  He was in the last group of the day and was told they were not taking anymore kids for that job.  He didn't realize he could have held off and came back when it was available.  So unfortunately they threw him in as an undesignated fireman.  His recruiter knew he was upset but tried to convince him it would all work out. Of course some of these recruiters just want to get the kids in and that is all they are worried about. His father and I were upset because we knew he really wanted the Master of Arms.  We did not want our negative attitude to ruin his view, so we just tried to encourage him that everything would work out.

He graduated in November from bootcamp and is now in Norfolk living in the shipyards on a barge while his ship is dry docked.  He will be 19 this month so he is one of the younger ones there.  He is the only one in his work area that is undesignated.  He is going to try and do everything he can to learn and pass things until he can strike for something.  He still wants to do the Master of Arms.

After reading some of these posts from people, I hope it doesn't turn into a big let down for him since he wants to make a career out of the Navy. For those kids who had a college degree and other experience, I am sure it is a very big letdown.  He is very smart and disciplined and hopefully he won't have a bad experience with this "undesignated" thing. My heart breaks for the mother who has to worry about her son and his depression.  I hope everything turns out okay for him in the end.

My bad, I meant to say MEPS.

Undesignated is not the end of the world.

My son wanted to be a SEAL.  When he entered the Navy (around 2006),  SEALs contracts were not given out at enlistment (or at least he didn't get one), so he went in as undesignated.  At Boot Camp, he was urged to sign as an Air Crew Rescue Swimmer, since this was recommended as a good path to SEALs.  Unfortunately he washed out of ACRS in Pensacola, and was sent to the fleet as undesignated on a ship out of San Diego.  On the ship, he worked hard at the chipping paint, etc., became a ship Rescue Swimmer and Master Helmsman.  Eventually, having had the chance to look around at the ratings available and interesting to him, he struck for OS and made it.  While an OS, he finally got his SEALs package together, but in Pre-BUDs, decided, after all that time, it wasn't for him.  As an OS, he got a billet in Germany, and is very happy doing what he is doing now. 

It can work out; good luck to your sons!

Well my son is going to do everything he can to still get into the Master of Arms.  That is what he wanted from the very beginning and he does not want anything to stop him.  I just told him he will be learning new things until he gets to that point and that would only benefit him.  We have all had to do things in our jobs that are not fun, but eventually you hope to find the job that you enjoy. My husband and I just told him to learn everything he can, and volunteer for anything that will benefit him.  I know he will be fine and I am not going to worry. 

up&down; with a college degree, I would have advised your son to go thru OCS; Officer Candidate school. Many Navy officers didn't attend the United States Naval Academy.

cutepups, the best advice you can give your son regarding the suicidal thought is to get off the anti-depressant meds; it it probably a side effect. Double check with the doctor first. Then, remind your son that the only people who win if he injures himself are the jerks onboard. Trust me, there are plenty when you are undesignated. Next, tell him to get the Naval 3&2 correspondence courses for the rating he has chosen and start studying them like his life depends upon it. Remind him, they are just people too so it doesn't matter what they think. I think the real coming of age for a man is when he looks around and discovers he is surrounded by people who aren't qualified to have an opinion about he, himself. When you realize you are surrounded by idiots, you stop trying to prove yourself to those idiots.

Back then they called us non-rates and as the term indicates, many regarded us as nothing. If you can survive that, you can survive anything.

You only have two options as a non-rate, choose your Navy occupation or let the Navy choose it for you.

Most give up and let the Navy choose it, then get out angry at the experience.

I chose mine and I encourage others to do the same, but it is the road less travelled and has the most obstacles.

Huffymom23. Tell him to bring his interests including the desire to be career MAA directly to the attention of the senior MAA in the MAA office. You'll find they are always looking for good men and usually shorthanded. It is a rating where many are sent TAD to it from other ratings. Most of the men and women walking the MAA night shift watches aren't even TAD. They are there just for the night and typically the MAA office requests the good ones get assigned for the night watch every fourth night from their division. If they are good the MAA office wants them back.

From the perspective of the MAA office "good" means they actually do walk their beat, they don't initiate trouble and they can handle most trouble without allowing themselves or others to get hurt.