Undesignated...What's Up With That?

Amen, AJ.  And please Dear Lord, keep our sailors safe. They are often in dangerous jobs and work long hard hours in this rate.  Watch over them, keep them in your Hand. And, do a glorious work with this journey they are on

Well Said AJ, and another Amen to your comment MyLAS.  I have read for awhile now and even though we are in the same boat our journeys will be different and hopefully we can learn from each other.

Up&Down I am proud to be a Navy veteran and I am trying to be gentle but given my family heritage, it isn't always easy to speak civilian. The touchy feely stuff is odd to me. 

I guess as a fleet sailor I saw too many sailors' hopes and dreams destroyed by the undesignated quota base system to regard it as harmless. 

One of the best men I've ever had the privilege to work with never made Petty officer. He passed the exams every time, but as a black he received lower evaluations than the whites which kept him from being elevated to Petty Officer. He never let it get him down though, and as he was being discharged, he encouraged me to remember I only lose if I let the situation get me down.

I'm on the side of the sailors who can't defend themselves.

Obviously there is going to be pain on both sides of the issue. I'm sure CrackerJackMom experiences the pain from both sides too. I'm sure her husband is a good man and her son is agood man too. I would only advise her son the rest of the sailors don't need to know his father's rating. Most would be okK with it while they are sober, but when they are drunk you never know.

I know all the Mom's on here would rather hear all the positive things going on with their Sailor with their journey going the Undesignated route......but, unfortunately, some Sailors find the undesignated route an undesirable route to take.  Sort of a "not good enough" for a rate attitude..........I do believe that there is a stigma amongst the Sailors with undes.  Let's face it, the Navy needs janitors and painters, too. Would that your first choice - undesignated- knowing that possibility? I think not.  But what really pisses me off is when I hear that our Sailors who are mopping the decks or chipping paint are mocked & ridiculed by rated Sailors. Why aren't the hecklers reprimanded!!!!!

So, personally, I don't think going Undesignated would be my first pick I would recommend trying to strike for a rate.

********my next post will tell another story, with hopes that you ladies will better understand why some moms feel bitter.

To be continued..................

NavyBrat, you are one confusing person and I find you somewhat amusing. For someone that is in law and facts, ……in what i’m not sure,  you certainly don’t have your facts straight. 

First of all I don’t know what you are talking about when you  refer to me.

My husband was never in the Navy. I have a son and a daughter in the Navy. One went in rated the other undesignated. I wound’t say “pain” is the correct word to use. I would say they each had “different" experiences. They are different people, put both my kids in the same situation and they will both react differently. 

I really think you’re missing the whole point of this site. I believe I can speak for a lot of the people that the purpose of this site is “support” and nothing more. When I first joined the group I never expected to get the answers that I as a parent could pass on to my sailor and fix it all. I was just glad to hear there were others going through the same thing. 

As the loved one left behind our imaginations run wild whether the sailor is rated or undesignated. And if I did’t know any better I think you get a kick out of feeding on the fears of others. Because you are not helping anyone.

I believe it was you that said your mission is to not have anyone go in undesignated (correct me if I’m wrong), but this is not the place, anyone on here already has an undesignated sailor. Find the site were the Deppers are. They are ones you want to talk with.  

Your friend was correct in saying “ I only lose if I let the situation get me down."

You obviously didn't listened to your friend or don’t believe that was good advice, because you are not passing it on to us. Whatever happened to you in the Navy has made you a very bitter and negative person. And personally I believe whatever you went through you most likely brought it on yourself with that attitude. 

I for one would love to hear your story from the day you took your oath till the day you became a civilian.  Because your comments are all over the place, it is hard to take you seriously, I believe you are the one who is drunk. 

And while I’m on my soapbox……I want to say that Angie is a wealth of knowledge, she never sugarcoated anything and just said what needed to be said. I would take her words over yours any day. 

For the record, if someone were to ask my daughter or me if they should go in undesignated......we would both say wait and go in rated. Yes, the sure thing is usually better then the unknown. But for some it may be their only way to get in, and they may need the job.......after all, thats what it is, a job.

Navy Brat, For all I know you may be in you 30’s, but you come across as a crotchety, bitter old man. And to that I say “Get off my lawn!!!”

CrackerJackmom, that's a relief to know. I was worried about your son and about you. 

I'm here to answer moma' questions about the Navy's undesignated quota based system. 

I'm not angry nor negative nor really old, I'm just brutally honest while trying to filter out most of the stuff that may frighten the moms.  

Currently, across the nation, one of the nation's largest vendors is fulfilling its contracts with the Federal government and State governments on time and under budget.

I think that if I was able to do it, your sons and daughters will be able to do it too.Personally, I think the undesignated program needs to be replaced by a multi-discipline program.

To better understand the Navy moms, allow me to put it in civilian terms.

There are three kinds of sailors.

The super haves. (Officers)

The haves. (A school graduates)

And the have nots. (Non-rates are lowest of this group)

The super haves and the haves have "golden boys" the have nots do not have "golden boys".

The "golden boys" of the haves are never sent "cranking". Their handlers keep them from associating with the non-rates. The Navy itself assumes the non-rates are not fit company for the "golden boys".

I keep writing and deleting my next part to why some moms don't like Undesignated......I haven't forgotten......to be continued

NavyBrat, can you please explain what you are relieved about, and what you meant by you were worried about my son and myself.

I have an 8 hour drive tomorrow to Chicago and very tired right now, but before I go to bed I want to finish talking about why some moms don't like undesignated.    Because I'm tired I'm going to just itemized thoughts here and it might be fragmented but I hope you get the jest:

Son graduates from college.  College education is paid by parents.  He's not ready for the working world 9-5 grind.  Wants something more.  Goes to local Navy Recruiting Center and talks with recruiter. Son starts working out more (he's always been athletic & in shape) runs, diets, lift weights swims, swims some more....now feels ready to sign for the Seal Contract which means he's a depper....won't join until he gets contract but takes the ABSVAB test.  Ready now to meet with Seal mentor.  It's a group of guys just like him who meet once a week and swims, runs, does push ups.....this is what it takes to make timed PSAT test.  Every other week it's a PSAT test.  Must pass.  If passes with great times, name gets put into the list to get picked for Seal Contract.  This continues for at least a year ( sometimes longer for some guys)....He gets picked and 4-5 mos. later is off to Boot Camp.

In the meantime....parents say at least go the Officer Candidate route but son wants to enlist so he has at least two chances to become a Seal.

Son starts Phase One of buds approx 4 mos after PIR but rings the bell due to some circumstance and everything they have worked so hard for comes to a complete halt.

No jobs available that are rated after talking with Career Counselor.  Career Counselor doesn't seem to care....just hurry up and make a decision.  After stalling, he signs the Undesignated paperwork.

College educated, chipping paint, mopping deck.  No time off as he sees little shits who have a rate chuckle and ridicule him for doing thankless job.

Now you tell me.....would you be bitter?????????

"To understand is to understand"   where some moms are coming from.

Mom worries about her depressed son because he feels like a failure.  Mom doesn't understand....but son you have a college education?!!!!  It means nothing going the enlisted route for a Seal Contract.  These guys that don't make it are forgotten.  These are good men.  Men of valor that set out for high goals.  Good men not being worked to their fullest potential because of bull shit "good ole boy" mentality.

I say before anybody gets a rate....they should be mopping floors, chipping paint, cleaning toilets.  Not fair for an educated guy not to get a rate similar to his college degree.

Good night.  Have a great weekend.  I hope you understand.

NavyBrat,

I think you should start a group. Make it private. Obviously, you have a great deal that you want to share. I trust your intentions are to help new sailors avoid undue pain. I doubt of my family's military pedigree could match yours. We have our share of golden boys and have-nots (golden boy dropouts). I can not agree with you more regarding many of the military's policies in dealing with personnel who don't "make" it thru phases or don't fit the mold.

If you have the power (influence) that you imply you have, it would be absolutely fantastic that you find some way effecting change within the system.

Within wider venue and most to engage in a meaningful discussion perhaps we'll get somewhere. 

Like most Navy For Moms groups, the members here just want friendly support - shoulders to cry on, some encouragement, sometimes info and understanding. Some make even feel taking part in changing the system may be beyond their control. Therefore, it would be easier to change their attitude, accept the circumstances (to some degree) and deal with it.

If you are in a position to make a difference, you have my support.

Sincerely your, BQB. 

My apologies for rambling, poor spelling and bad grammar. It's late at night for this 66 year old.

NavyBrat,  FYI - some of my family military affiliations

USMA (2 clases), USNA, OCS, ROTC.

Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Croix de Guerre, Nominated for Junior Officer of the Year. Army Infantry officer, Navy fighter pilot, Army Ranger, Navy sub/nuke officer. 

But as one of my sons pointed out - no one gives a $h%t - it's what you can accomplish on your own.

Up&Down,  Is this your sailor?  It's certainly mine.  There is NOTHING wrong with being undes if this is a chance for our younger sailors to look around, work their way up, and find a niche for them to serve. And, I thank them for their service

There is something VERY VERY WRONG with the Navy these days when college grads (from a top 20 college and with an impressive degree), are sent undes where their bosses are 20 year olds with a GED.  And, they are stuck there for a year and a half now.   Still at same rank as when they went in.   Something is VERY WRONG with the Navy.. I won't even go into the sexism of girls getting shore duty, only working 30 hours a week, etc after about 3 months of undes, the racism (since the "bosses - see above- make the duty "rotation" , gangs, bullying, and targeting. 

So moms, this is my story.  Not really meant to be negative. It's just my story.

Ladies, please tell your sailors to keep their focus.  Ladies, pray for them everyday (all day).  Ask the Lord's favor on them for safety.  I now pray that my son be invisible.  I know he won't be advancing.  I know it is terrible for him.  I pray that he be invisible to the chiefs so that he won't have extra working parties, always get weekend duty (EXTRA... ), that he not have to be the only one in the rain pulling trash out (while eveyone else watches the ball game),  those sort of things.  ..  Something is VERY WRONG with the Navy.

MyLAS & Up&Down,

I couldn't agree with you more. Seems such a waste for the Navy not to utilize talented people. 

Up&Down your son is not a failure. He has good times ahead of him. He is OCS eligible.

BunkerQB, I made sure every bird was ready to launch on time. I embarrassed their golden boys though by accomplishing what they failed to accomplish. That made some people hate me, some with power always did and those who thought I didn't belong in their department used their influence to try and get me busted on drug charges by getting my name on the random (allegedly random) drug test eight months in a row. That was the wrong thing for them to do. When I tested negative eight months in a row, the rest of the crew believed I beat the Navy. It backfired on them.

There is a right way and a wrong way to play the game, and we have to teach them the right way to play the game.

All I had to do to get my crow was get a Captain promoted to Commodore, two Commanders promoted to Captain, and three Lt Commanders promoted to Commander. No biggie.

I believe it in the Navy's best interest to encourage the sailors to pass every rating exam they can pass. I prefer multi-rating system and who cares if the rating is on their ship. The more ratings each sailor has, the more options the CO has.

I'm just curious NavyBrat, I may have missed it in later posts, but what rate and rank were you by the time you got out of the Navy?

Thanks for understanding, Bunker.  I don't mean to be negative.  All I know is MY story. I hope that for others, undes will the most appropriate choice and will be full of opportunities, challenges and growth.

The undes sailors fulfill a VERY valuable role in keeping our country safe. THANK YOU, SAILORS..  My sailor "assumed" that when he was med dropped, he would still have been valuable..... not so... Oh, and btw, when you have a degree, you can't use Tuition Assistance to get grad course money..

I forgot to add that my sailor hears every day that he is NOT valuable.  He is humiliated, called out, made an example of, etc.  For example, his CO told him and another,  "YOu are the guys who picked on us in high school. Now it is our turn".  This is the culture of the Navy .. AND, my sailor would have truly been a "Quiet professional".. He NEVER picked on anyone in high school. He is a humble, kind,, quiet, gentleman. Or he was, the Navy has made him bitter, hateful, resentful and full of self doubt

I don't think I can agree with your blanket statement that this is the "culture of the Navy." I believe that your sailor has a bad CO. And his CO should be reported. 

Why would your son not be eligible for TA? It doesn't make sense, 

There are reasons why he may not be eligible but I don't believe it is because he has a degree. Officers can further their education through TA, and someone with no college can. Why would someone with a degree not be able to?

Is your son getting out in two years, or has he only been in a year, ect.......there are always criteria , but I don'y think it would be because someone has already gone to college.

Check this site out.  https://www.navycollege.navy.mil/ta_info.aspx

I don't know any of it for sure, and just don't want to make a statement that is not true.

Good Evening Y'All....just came back from Chicago earlier this evening and wanted to reply to some posts.

My last post was about college educated men who DOR from BUD/S and go Undesignated....

my son DOR'd last year in  September and signed Undesignated but not by choice there was nothing available at the time. He was able to stay in San Diego and started chipping and painting on a docked ship that is scheduled for deployment sometime next year.  It was around late November that he was approached by a commanding officer and asked to join a specific squadron.  He did move over and stopped chipping paint!

By late Spring he was picked to replace a Sailor that was injured on the job on another ship and this ship deployed this past summer.  So I do believe that the higher ups in the Navy observe closely who is who and who has potential.  (at least I want to believe it)

I also want to believe that anyone serving our country that is college educated before joining the military is capable of getting their masters degree with tuition assistance.  If this is not true than our military is really dumb .

Whatever their jobs may be in undesignated....our sons & daughters need to be the best that they can be....and be proud. 

Thanks CjM.  Yes, I think his CO is terrible.  The things he tells me are hard to stomach (as a mom).  He and some of his friends (whom I have had dinner with - same situation as my son  as to how they came to undes after thinking they would go a different way), tell me the same stories.  For example, they go in, have a meeting for suggestions about how to go about getting  TA, or different jobs, etc.  They fill out paperwork and as they are leaving the office, they hear the papers going into the trashcan.  The person makes sure they hear it.  

He was told he can't use TA for a graduate degree.  I believe what he tells me. He has always leveled with me about EVERYTHING.  Even things I didn't want to hear.  I have no reason not to believe what he tells me. 

I know from the boys I have had dinner with that there is an corrupt culture on his ship.  Things that are criminal. But, I also know that the boys told me about retaliation they have seen and experienced.

Here's one example.  My sailor was assigned cranking in the coffee shop. He was elated over this small advancement. IT was a break for him and as he said he was making peoples' lives a little brighter with a coffee and a smile. We joked that at least he could work in a coffee shop while in med school (which is his plan after his time is up), to offset some of the cost.  He had been there 3 weeks when the CO saw him.  Asked him what he was doing there and told him "I'll take care of THAT".  Shortest time cranking ever, I guess.  Back to the flight deck for my boy.

MyLAS do you think that your son has a discrimination case or even an harassment case against the Navy?

He should start documenting things that happen and are said. These stories are just incredible.  The ship that he is on seems to me to have nothing but bullies assigned to it and shame on the captain and all commanding personnel that allows that to happen or practices this bullying themselves.  They should be reported, reprimanded and demoted.

NO TOLERANCE for that kind of behavior!!!!!!!!!

This message is now directed to the moms here who say that they don't want to hear about any of the negatives or that there is too much negativity on the page:

We are here for EVERYONE!  That is what this is all about!

Life's journey has it ups & downs (no pun intended).  I don't want this to be a LALA page where everything is all roses....because some of our kids' journey is not as successful as someone else's.

So please stay on this page or come back and support everyone.  And please try to be empathetic

MyLAS, This may be something to have your son look into.

http://www.secnav.navy.mil/ig/Pages/Home.aspx

MyLAS, If these things are taking place and not just to your son but others, I think that it's their duty to somehow get to the right person and have it investigated. Otherwise it will just continue.

They need to start documenting names, dates, and events.

THANK YOU SO MUCH UP&DOWN!!  I really appreciate your comment, and completely agree with you.  I appreciate EVERYONE's journey and welcome the good and the bad, and hope that this page is about SUPPORT and not just one side or the other.  Congratulate those that have had major UPS....Empathize with those who have had major DOWNS...LoL and I think your screen name is the most fitting for this group especially! 

I really have a problem with the mentality that I have seen somewhat here of "oh they MUST be a negative person if they have had a negative experience" or "their sailor MUST have brought bad things on themselves"....I do agree that yes, sometimes this happens, but it is also a (hard) fact of life that sometimes bad things happen to good people.  Yes it is hard to accept, and yes it is hard to hear about, but it is a true fact of life...and it sounds like MyLAS's son is experiencing this...just a luck of the draw on the command you get, could be legit, could be corrupt.  And more than anything when this is happening to our loved ones, we need empathy and support, not blamed because bad things are happening to us.  My husband got out, however when he was in (and for a while was undes), he had experiences similar to what MyLAS is talking about...and I'm sorry if its not all roses and LaLa, I really wish it was!  I wish I could offer more positive experiences, and make people feel better about things, but all I can offer is my husband's journey and what the truth was for us.  But I do believe everything does happen for a reason, and my husband was meant to experience these things, an even if we can't see the meaning now, there was a reason and we live with no regrets.  You never know what is right around the corner waiting for you in life.  When things are hard it is so hard to look to the future and know that things will get better!  We were stuck in a rut when my husband was in, however now we are starting over and moving to the Caribbean!  And we couldn't be happier....there is always hope and nothing lasts forever...I guess what I am trying to say was that the navy was a part of our life, but it wasn't our life, if that makes sense.  4 years does come to an end for those with not-so-good experiences, and for those that choose to stay in, I'm very happy they have had better experiences with things! 

I guess what it boils down to, is that we should be stronger as a group with many different experiences to offer, and should be supportive of both the good and the bad! 

Well said TropikalParadize!

And, CrackerjackMom.....I like how you are helping MYLAS by looking up information that might be helpful for her son.   :)

I hope it will help somehow. I believe that's what we are all hear for.....to try and help and encourage one another.

MyLAS, I remember the days that I was ridiculed too, but what got me out of the blues was looking around and realizing the men who were ridiculing me were mostly alcoholics, immature, insecure and usually unhappy. They also defined manhood as using women. I decided right then and there, Suddenly, I realized, their opinion of me was irrelevant. Their opinion of me didn't make me a better or worse person, nor could it.

Think of it as a "comes the dawn" moment and that is what your sailor must do to. Take a good look at the morons.

Up&Down, your son will make a better officer now that he has seen life in the Navy from the bottom. My uncle was a Seabee. Try OCS and the Seabees.

Moms, you don't want to sue the Navy while your sailor is in the Navy. Let's just say not all "accidents" are "accidents".

CrackerJackMom, I was worried your son may encounter an "accident" if he was a son of a recruiter. Most non-rates wouldn't do so, but some of the disgruntled with the Navy lifers can be real peaches especially when they are drunk.

My rating and level at the time of my honorable discharge isn't really relevant then or now. I became an Aviation Electronics Technician, but wasn't one of the golden boys and didn't attend the "A" school so like many others who choose the path less traveled, I never worked in my rating as my official duties. I was always sent TAD.

The only time I worked in my rating in the Navy was during my off duty hours.

Today, the AT rating has been merged with the AQ and AX rating and an IT rating has been created.

When I was in the Navy, the AT's like myself purchased various versions of the PC's and brought them into the fleet because the Navy wouldn't pay for them yet. They were too new.

I looked it up. Sailors are eligible to apply for an "A" school after they have been at their command for a year. Most will not be sent to "A" school from their ship anyway, but it never hurts to try.

Currently, the Navy has ratings in four categories rather than three like they had when I was in the Navy.

1.Open. Any sailor may take the test for a rating in this category, but if the command doesn't have an opening for an E3 in that rating, PNA'ing the exam will not change your sailor to a designated striker. If the command does not have an opening for an E4 in that rating, your sailor will be PNA'd regardless of how well he or she did on the exam.

2.Approval required. Kind of like the "controlled rating of my days. Non-rates must request approval to take the rating exam. Designated strikers in the rating are pre-approved and have preference.

3. "A" school required. Unless your non-rate is sent to the "A" school from the fleet, the rating is closed to him or her.

4. Closed. Only the Navy gets to chose who will be allowed in these ratings.

Personally, I think the Navy's undesignated program is harmful to the Navy. Unhappy sailors are not the way to fulfill the needs of the Navy.

All "A" schools that do not involve classified information need to be available online in the fleet. The Navy would save quite a bit of money this way and the sailors could study on their own time or with the command's assistance and guidance thereby fulfilling the needs of the command and the sailors. The best trainers are the men and women who do the job daily. Getting them all the materials they need to properly teach the profession, will benefit the Navy greatly.

I just joined this site because by son is undesignated but after reading some of the posts I don't think this sight is for me. Way too much negativity here. I belong to two other Navy Mom sights and have found them very helpful with much information and support. Farewell and Best Wishes to you and your Sailors.

I just joined this site because by son is undesignated but after reading some of the posts I don't think this sight is for me. Way too much negativity here. I belong to two other Navy Mom sights and have found them very helpful with much information and support. Farewell and Best Wishes to you and your Sailors.

casb8, Vickie start another PACT group. Here is the link.

http://navyformoms.com/group/pact-moms

I believe she made that group private (not sure).  Please scroll back to the comment I post about a sailor in my area who joined right out of high school undesignated. Yes, he did his share of painting and cleaning but he is now going to the Language School in Monterey - don't know his job but he is very very happy and has no regrets joining as an undesignated.  Best of luck to your son.

That's great Bunker!  So glad your sailor has advanced.  I think the problem with the negativity came from saliors being led to believe that there would be a time of exploration of jobs and then a chance to choose.  For many, there was never that chance for choice or advancement.   I wish the best for your sailor and all those others 

MyLAS, The sailor who started out as a undesignated is from my area but not my son (to back to Item #2 on page 10).

My son was one of the super-haves golden boys (officer). He has been out of the Navy for 2 years and is doing extremely well in the civilian world. 

I joined this group and the parallel group (started by Vickie) to support moms/dads who are going thru a rough patch because of the undesignated rating. Because I don't personally have an undesignated son/daughter, it's easier for me to take a step back and gleam just the "positive" points made by others and ignore the "negatives." Because I have a another son (former sailor's younger brother) who has taken a more circuitous path thru life, I can relate to the stab in the heart and knot in the stomach feeling when your child is hurting, especially when you feel it's unfair, unwarranted, undeserved.  MyLAS, intentional misleading the people who sign up for undesignated is wrong. Putting a sailor w a high ASVAB in undesignated because he/she didn't progress thru the initial rating (say nuke, seal or ??) and not take advantage of the intelligence/ability of the person makes not sense. 

It was good for Vickie to start the other group to give the moms a "private" place to find support when she is just plain weary of fighting. I don't mean to have blinders on but simply a place to rest and have some shoulders to cry on.

I also think that it's important for parents to read about the downside of issues - to find out what can happen, what has happened and how to avoid these situations. There is a dose of realism to many of NavyBrat's comments. The bridge from learning about the pitfalls, internalizing the information and reframing it so that the information is useful (particularly for the sailors) is the real challenge for parents. 

Because I don't have an active sailor any longer, I have been slowly but surely retreating to the background (as I should) but I stay around to provide support where needed as a way of thanking those with sons and daughters choosing to serve our military.  When my son first joined the Navy, Navy For Moms (and groups on Facebook) didn't exist. I more or less suffered in silence. Wish there was something I could do beyond just being supportive.