Gays allowed in the military starting today (Sept 20th)

[Craig]

Whether you like it or hate it, today is the day that the military allows openly gay military service members to serve.  

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-obama-signs-repeal-dont-la...

and

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/22/us-usa-military-gays-idUS...

[Mom2aSailor]

I don't see the gay issue being the same as allowing women or blacks into the service.  For those that think this is going to be an easy transition and that there won't be legal issues to deal with, aren't seeing the whole picture.

[Paula S.]

Definately interesting conversation and all really good points.  The only thing I'd like to add is that we'd like to assume that all involved are "adults"... technically they are, mentally I'm not so sure.  There seems to be an undercurrent of of self-absorbtion... and it's not only in our young people... and I'm also pretty sure that this isn't anything new.  But I do believe there is more of it and perhaps that is a breakdown within our family structure.. another discussion, for another time.  We, as family and friends with direct exposure to our military men and women, are seeing the "best of the best".  I volunteer for Honor Flight Chicago and we usually have a couple of hundred sailors from Great Lakes at the Homecoming ceremony.  They stand in stark contrast to youth on the other extreme.  They are a joy to talk to and I make a point of shaking as many of their hands as possible and thank them for being at Midway and for their service to our country.  My whole point of this post is while many of different sexual persuasions conduct themselves with civility and respect for their shipmates, there are a few who will not.  Segregated berthing of males and females on board warships is proper and ensures personal privacy of genders (as much as possible considering the confines of life on a ship)... now it's more complicated. 

[Angie]

Paula,

 

haha!  Not all those young Sailors that go to the Honor Flight as are good as we make them out to be.  I know I am up here in Great Lakes :~}

 

As far as the segregated berthing....we have had gays in the military for years...and you know what ever knew it also.  It wasn't like anyone was hiding it, as the civilian sector seems to think.  We (Sailors) have lived side by side with gays, and fought side by side with thiem for years.  The only thing that this repeal really did was allow them to go out with their partner and even bring them to events.  I can't wait for the Balls' this year!

[Paula S.]

Of course, Angie... that would definately be a "pie in the sky" attitude!

 

I'm not suggesting segregated berthing for gays... that would be the dumbest idea ever.  Personally, I don't care what a person's sexual persuasion is and I'm sure, as said, that many of our military personnel don't either.  It's more important that now there is not a necessity to lie to your shipmates in order for you to retain your enlistment.  Just wondering about the homophobes... I suspect it will be treated or ignored along the same lines as women have been dealing with as far as sexual discrimination and harassment is concerned.  Yes, there are rules regarding said behavior but many chose not to report violations due to the ramifications of same.  Hopefully, it will all washout in the end.

[Anti M]

Yep, I had gay roommates (and a concrete reason I know I don't prefer women, I can say that now).   We all knew who was gay and who wasn't.  Those who would be a pain and trouble for them were kept in the dark.

These days, the homophobes will be smart and keep their mouths shut, just as the misogynists and racists have learned to keep their opinions to themselves if they want to advance.  

I had a Navy doctor tell me I shouldn't be in his Navy, and quite a few other choice insults.  I reported him formally.  The next time we crossed paths at the clinic, I could see his attitude had been adjusted, he in the waiting room between appointments, checking that every sailor was being treated well and getting the help they needed.  So I can see even old homophobes coming around if old women-haters could change.

[Craig]

Well, this is my views, which are way out in left field.

I have totally mixed views on this gay thing.  I can accept gay females, but not gay males.  I know you're all thinking it's because it's every guys fantasy to see two women together, which isn't my reason (however, it does have it's own merit).  It because a woman can hide their sexual feelings around other gals in the shower room.  However, a guy can't hide theirs.  I would hate to shower and find someone next to be with a "stiffy schlong" (sorry, couldn't think of a better way of calling it).  A guy can't hide those feelings. If you're gay, it will be around other men  However, a woman can hide their affection.  

Things change.  During my era in the Navy, we had sailor smoking dope on the ships and shore stations.  This all changed when they starting detecting marijuana.  Then, I was on the 1st ship in the Mediterranean that allowed a women. All of us guys were "manning-the-rails" and did all the wolf whistle as they walked up the pier.  A totally different era.  You try that now, you're history!  

When we got these women I totally thought they couldn't do the job as well as us guy.  Boy oh boy, did that view change about 1 month later.  I use to work on Crypto equipment.  Crypto equipment is electronic machines that scramble Navy messages so other countries can't read your messages. I was working on this equipment for weeks and couldn't find the problem.  I changed out everything on the equipment (circuit cards, card reader...etc) and nothing fixed it.  So, I broke down and took it to the woman in Crypto shop.  In 30 minutes she had it fixed.  I asked her how the heck she did it.  She said "Since we women couldn't go to ships, we stayed on shore duty.  We only got the Crypto machines that the guys on the ship couldn't repair.  They were only the hardest problems because all the easy ones were solve on the ship".  Since that day I have changed my views on lots of things.  It was a wake up call to me.  

So, I guess what I'm saying is I can accept a gay person in the work space, but I can't in the shower room.  

Kind of brings a new meaning to "Sponge Bob Square Pants..."

 

 

[Anti M]

Um, I'm going to have to ask my gay friends (some of whom are vets) about that physical reaction in the showers.  And how could you tell if it wasn't simply a guy who got that way in the morning, nothing sexual about it?  An erection isn't always a sign of attraction, sometimes it is just an erection for no good reason.   We all served with gay sailors, even if we didn't talk about it, so I have to ask... did the shower scenario ever happen to you?

[Anti M]

Hubby just got home so I could ask him first hand, he's retired Navy, gator freighters, plenty of sea duty.   He says their showers were all individual, only group showers were in boot camp.  Yes, he knew some of his shipmates were definitely gay, but they never hit on him or displayed .... "signs of affection" to him or any of the straight sailors. 

I do hang out with naturalists, of all sexual persuasions, and I've yet to see a boner even in the presence of gorgeous people who were attracted to each other!!!! (male, female, what have you)  If I didn't see "stiffies" from the tipsy men around the young ladies with everything on everyone bare, and I know they were interested, they were hitting on the gals at the Party Naked Tiki Bar, then yes, men CAN hide their affections.

So your concerns don't fit into our experiences, which is why I asked about details.

(man, this would be so much more fun over drinks!!!) 

[Craig]

Anti - The shower room doesn't just consist of showers.  It has sinks, it has toilets too.  So if I'm standing at the sink shaving, I don't want want any guy thinking that they can "Rob my bank" if I accidentally drop my soap, I don't want to have my eyes doing this 

 

Per the morning "wood", yea, every guy get that until they go and urinate.  Once that's done, then everything returns to normal.  What I'm concerned is when it happens afterwards.  If a heterosexual guy can get a stiffy from looking at a woman, don't you think a homosexual can get one looking at a guy?  It's whatever turns the guy on that makes all of that stuff (or stiff) work.  Bottomline is I don't want to have to buy a reverse chastity belt.  

[Sissi]

Wow, this is a very interesting discussion.  Honestly, I don't understand what the big fuss is about.  Nothing is going to change that much, except some good soldiers and sailors will be allowed to serve their country.  Gays have always been a part of the military and they shouldn't have to hide it.  I know because I asked my son about it a few months ago, and he basically said mom, there's a lot of gays and lesbians and nobody really cares, that as long as you do your job, that's all that really matters.

 

For the past I don't know how many years (post WWII of course) I've believed the military is ahead of the civilian world in terms of racial equality, but I think they're pretty far behind as far as gender is concerned.  I mean, it was just recently the Navy allowed women on subs.  As far as I'm concerned, a way bigger problem than homosexuality is the sexual discrimination and assaults of women by HETEROSEXUAL men.  Alex sees a lot of sexual harassment of women and unfortunately the women tend to keep it quiet because they're afraid of rockin' the boat (sorry, unintentional pun). 

 

As far as berthings and showers, well, I'm sorry, but I think that's just silly.  For one, they don't even take showers together after boot camp, and even if a guy happens to get a chub in the shower, it doesn't mean he's attracted to you.  Craig, you can deny it all you want, but I sense a little bit of homophobia from you. 

 

One final thought:  In my lifetime (and I'm 47) it was illegal for interracial couples to marry in many states.  I'm hoping some day we'll look back on this and think, gee, there was a time when gay couples couldn't marry?   Sure, it might eventually create some legal problems with BAH and so on, but let's face it, there are a lot man-woman marriages that happen just so they can get extra money.

[Craig]

Sissi - I'll admit to being 1/2 of a homophobe.  Like I said, like the rest of the world. I bet 98% of the males would love to see two gals together.  But I bet it would be less than 10% of gals would want to see two guys together. The reason is God perfected the woman's body.  It can't get much better.  It is a work of art.  

 

I also said that I can accept gays in the work space, but not the shower room.  Again, by shower room I mean sink, toilet, and shower.  Even though I'm not much of a religious guy, I do believe in God.  I believe in the bible.  I don't believe that homosexuality between males is accepted.  It's just mentioned too many times.  However, the bible only has one clear reference of gay gals, which is Romans 1:26-28.  

 

I really didn't want religion to play any part of this Gay debate, but I did want to say this is the reason why I don't agree with it.  To me having blacks, women, or whatever in the Navy is great because it doesn't go against my, or almost every religious belief in the world, however, homosexuality between men does.  Much like people saying "but our God is a forgiving God", my answer to this is once Judas is allowed to stand on the alter with Jesus, then I will know that I must change too.  

[Anti M]

Thanks for being honest.  I was pretty sure you didn't have gay friends to "set you straight" about approaching other men.  The way you describe it really is not the way it works, so I'm told.  And homophobia is a turn-off, so you're completely safe.  

Really, gay men tend to know who would be interested also, and they can save the hardwood for the appropriate people in the appropriate setting.  It is a non-issue, more reflective of your mindset than of the reality of shared spaces.