Discharged from Nuke Program

[ChuckG]

Unfortunately My son sent us a text that he is out of the nuke program--His scheduled graduation date was 1/30 and because of a facility issue at Goose Creek where the ship wasn't working properly they delayed it until 3/30. He told us he was SO FAR behind, was given work to catch up plus the work that needs to be done every day. He struggled through A-School..barely passing. He struggled through Power School--barely passing...and Prototype did him in. His supervisors are saying he is a worthless piece of shit, that he isn't trying hard enough. Honestly, I think he has the brains to pass the tests to qualify to get into the nuke program..but isn't up to snuff cognitively to make it through the program. They aren't even talking about transferring him. Right now he is working in the administration office because they have nothing else for him and he is very likely to be discharged soon. This breaks his mom and my heart because he REALLY wanted to go in doing something with computer science and the recruiter was insistent the nuke program was so much better--everyone passes...etc...and a less than honorable discharge for not being cognitively able to make it through the program is just crap in my opinion.  He was told that they would put his name out there to a couple bases that he could possibly qualify for but, "if they don't want you...which they probably won't...who would?' then your shit out of luck. They told him he wasn't going to amount to crap as a civilian. He has busted his ass with hours..puts in the extra-required hours and then some. I understand being tough and realistic to motivate...but they are doing it to demean and get rid of him. I don't see how not being able to pass the nuke program equals being a miserable failure in life or not being able to even be a cook or a conventional sailor....makes no sense and as pro-military as I have always been...right now I'm questioning everything. 

[William in Nashua]

I would parse it carefully though because there were people who were separated from the Navy during the nuclear pipeline including between schools.  Lack of academic success and demonstrated or perceived lack of effort are two different things.  The hammer can come down hard in the latter case.  It could also be your son's instructors got an earful for some reason and are taking it out on him.  Your son should make it clear he wants to serve no matter what reassignment. I would take that officer up on his offer to chat and find out what is going on.  Again best of luck to you both.

[Mama Candy]

Wonderful news!!  I hope you posted an update, as I am reading this in December!

[William in Nashua]

Chuck I wish you well. I am not sure how your son was given the impression that everyone makes it because everyone most certainly does not make it. At my son's graduation from prototype the commanding officer said that the attrition rate for nuclear propulsion is second only to SEAL training. There are a lot of students who fail out of prototype because the program tried to carry the student along for as long as it could.  At a certain point they decide the candidate can or cannot make it.  

There is a meme here that if you fail nuke training you get assigned something else great that maybe  would have been your second choice anyway. I get that because it's a support group. Mostly I  have not seen that though in about 5 years I have been here though.  Some do get a good deal.  I have seen people reassigned as cooks or to non-technical ratings.  In a few cases a technical field.  One of the cooks on my son's submarine is a ex nuke-student.  I have also seen people discharged but that is captain's mast.  Mostly though people announce their son/daughter was dropped and after that they go dark and you never find out quite what happened.  They get something though.

The Navy is downsizing too so any decision to retrain in what is based on needs of the Navy.    

It is different than SEAL because a) those who try SEAL training have a fall back rating before they start and b) you can quit at any time just ring a bell.  In Nuclear Field there is no way to quit and no guaranteed plan B if dropped.  It all depends.  I hope things turn out for the best.

[ChuckG]

William, 

He wasn't given the impression everyone passes the nuke program--he was told that by the recruiter...even the chief commander said this--"  I cannot fully account for what the Recruiter told, insinuated or alluded to with you or your Son.  I can say my own experience with Recruiters and my Son was also an interesting experience, especially considering that I have great knowledge of the Navy and how it works."  Sounds like recruiters will say anything to get a recruit to sign and he was pushing the nuke program over any other program--as someone else said, they probably get more points on their record by signing up nukes over anything else. At this point, I would rather him get reassigned as a cook than discharged with anything less than honorable. A cook position would be a minor setback...a discharge with less than honorable or any type that wasn't a full honorable discharge would, in my opinion, be a much bigger setback with  longer lasting implications.  As a cook, he could utilize the GI Bill and be able to pursue something technical with an honorable discharge from the Navy to boot.

[BoyWonderMom]

Chuck, my husband is a Navy veteran. Now a 100% disabled Navy veteran. His rate in the Navy was MS. Mess Specialist, what is now Culinary Specialist. A cook. That was his first choice back in 1982. He served in the Navy until 1990. When he got out and on to civilian life he made a very decent living for him and his family because of the Navy training. Seeked by the best restaurants because of his expertise. My brother in law, his brother, started in the Navy back in 1981. He worked hard from BC, got sponsored for the Academy, finished, went on to be a pilot, transferred to the Marines and just retired as a Colonel. The military service is what you make of it.
My husband wanted you to know that the nukes on a ship or sub wouldn't survive without the cooks, LOL. (He remembers going down to the engine room to take a bite to eat to the nukes)
Your son will get through this, and God willing, whatever he ends up doing, he will be successful.

[William in Nashua]

Chuck, I can accept without question that the recruiter sold your son a bill of goods and that deserves sympathy and understanding and looks like the NNTPC commander has heard you too. On the other hand you told him yourself he would be joining one of the hardest programs in the military and you're his father.  But I also kind of agree with  Cleaver6 too in that at this point, what the recruiter said two and a half years ago is water under the bridge.  Whatever else your son says to his superiors from here on, from one dad to another I would advise that under no circumstance should he even bring up the notion he feels he was misled by a Navy recruiter. Just my 2¢.   

Maybe the best thing he could tell the commanding officer and the detailer was I gave it my best, I made it nearly the way to the end, I am disappointed I could not complete the nuclear training, but I still want to serve in the US Navy and put my existing training to the best use.  And to wear a crisply pressed uniform and a new haircut when he says it.  Again best of luck I do not think he will be separated at all but we all want the best possible outcome for your son and are rooting for you both.

[ChuckG]

You suggestion, William, of the best thing he could do would be my suggestion too! That would be the admirable thing to do--demonstrating integrity in a time of frustration and difficulty. But my son took a different approach. He thinks "honesty" is the most important thing. HIs separation was for "willfully falling behind in qualifications." Which Christopher flat out says is a lie. They called him a liar--because of his response to them. He went...pardon the pun...nuclear on them. He told them the reason he fell behind was for "Lack of ability to retain the stupidly large amount of knowledge on an uninteresting subject in the incredibly small amount of time I was given."  I told him had he left out the word "stupidly" he might very well have saved his career in the Navy--even if it meant picking/scraping paint off the deck of an aircraft carrier for the next 4 years. Nope...he wanted out and made sure he got out. When I told him I was not ashamed of him not being up to snuff on the ability to pass this incredibly hard program...that I would be as proud as any dad could be that he gave it his all and was re-rated and continued to serve out his commitment--the oath he took to our country to serve and defend in that time period. He told me he wanted out and let them know. He told me, "I was angry and I did want out of the navy. The navy stands for defending America and helping others. I don't care about this corrupted country's wellbeing and I was in the navy to help myself and not others. The navy was a poor life decision and I'm overwhelmingly happy to be getting out. You may argue that this new decision of mine will make my life shitty but my life was going to be shitty regardless. When I realized that it was all a matter of picking my shitty situation and I prefer free will over serving a cause I don't believe in."

My mouth dropped when I read that--I instantly felt a failure--how in the world did I raise this attitude? My feelings started to change--it breaks my heart to say it, but I felt shame in him. Not because of failing a class, a program...but for his attitude. I love this country and I hold all branches of the U.S. Military in the highest regard. I think service to others IS something everyone should do each day. The level of selfishness, self-centeredness, and entitlement is unacceptable to me. I KNOW he has been through 2 extremely tough years of mental, psychological, and physical stress beyond measure...but so were every single sailor in his unit..and the entire program. This is unacceptable to me. 

He asked me "I see absolutely no difference in what the next 4 years will be like compared to the past 2 years." I told him: 1. you signed your name, gave your word, and took an oath to do so. 2. A guaranteed roof over your head. 3. Food in your stomach. 3. A GI Bill to use however you wish upon leaving 4 years from now. ...i.e. your "free will" means your dependent self is now no longer dependent on the Navy but your PARENTS. Your word, what does it mean? If you are able to smart off to an English teacher in high school (wrote her a letter very similar to what he told the LCC in the Navy), and all your commanders in the US NAVY, who won't you smart off when the time gets tough?? I guarantee there will come a time, probably very next job, that you can't handle something and go ballistic on them. 

He still has 3-4 weeks to serve...says even though he has been discharged with a general discharge, the separation process takes a few weeks and he will continue to be required to report for duty on whatever job they have him doing. 

I seriously don't know what to do with him. His old bedroom is now a work from home room for my wife and I--an Art Studio. We have a couch and we told him he has about as much time as he would for a leave to find a job and a place to live...I KNOW he won't find a job in that time period. He already told me he will find a job..two if need be, in anything BUT fast food (I guess he is too good for that). I will tell him that he NEEDS a fast food job before he needs to lay on the couch or hang with friends all day. 

When I asked him what his goals now were--go to the local community college but  probably won't start that for at least a year...get a job and an apartment with 3 or 4 of his friends here in town. From there he plans on working as a computer gaming developer for a computer gaming company (his advance education is a high school diploma mind you)..and become the CFO/CEO and chief gaming programmer for the company he and his friends are going to start (of which each has a high school diploma tops)...

I told him, "Mom and I demand you have a "backup" plan because right now you are not living in Realville." This was the same goal he had as a freshman in high school. Some may think you don't need a college degree to be a gaming programmer--but you do--and the industry is extremely competitive--and he comes to his mom and me to fix his computer when he has problems. HIs communication skills are well below average (probably made the Navy a very difficult place for him) and I seriously thought the Navy would open his eyes to the real world. I'm afraid he remained in his junior high cocoon this whole time. 

On the outside, he appeared to be doing so much better since joining the Navy. He communicated with us so much better--though very infrequently. He seemed proud to have passed A-School and Powerschool...but he also is one who has always been one to never try anything unless he thinks he can do well with it. Failure was an option--but I'm not going to try something I might fail. I made sure he realized over and over that the Navy nuke program has a higher rate of failure than most careers or ratings...he was smarter than all the nukes. He thought Basic Training would be the hardest thing to pass because he isn't physical (he had to gain 7 pounds to be allowed to go away to Basic training--which he gained 7.2 pounds).

I'm at a lost. I love my son, but I am not proud of him now....how can I be? Yes, he was honest, but you can be honest by NOT saying everything you are thinking. Being honest and saying, "My word doesn't count for anything, I hate this place, I hate this country and the people here..." may very well be honesty...but it's honesty that is screaming "I need help"and unfortunately he doesn't think he needs help. He thinks he is just fine and the rest of the world (probably even his mom and I as well) are the ones who need help.  I know he probably never sought the help of a psychologist or chaplain in the Navy--he should have. 

This is a Mom's support group for kids away in the Navy--if anything my post should serve most Mom's to know, what your son or daughter is doing away in the Navy is such a wonderful sacrifice and you certainly have every right to be proud of them--know whatever difficulties they are going through could be much much worse than they are. Since it is a Mom's support group, and I see a fair number of Dad's contributing, what conditions would you, as parents, place on your child coming home after all the information I shared with you? Would you even let him come home? Would you give him 2 weeks to find a place--30, 60 days?? He is very responsible for his money...has a lot in savings--spent very little of it. He will have to pay back whatever bonus he got for the program...but should still have $8000 left after that. He paid off his car early--dropping $15000 on it so he has no loan on it....what would you do?

I appreciate all the advice and words of encouragement you all provided. And like you all, I wish we were not going through this. I honestly thought we were dealing with a sailor who was trying everything to stay in the Navy (as of Feb 10th when he found out he was separated from the Nuke program he sounded excited and very much looking forward to a re-rate--something in the last couple weeks snapped in him big time)...so I apologize that my son's actions turned out to be so different than the actions your sons and daughters are demonstrating as they live out their lives in the Navy. I am very proud of them for doing so...and can honestly say I am not proud of my sons reaction and ultimate outcome handling the stresses and commitment he gave his word to. May God be with all your sailors as they continue to serve and bless you with peace as they are away serving our wonderful country.

[Mark]

I cannot imagine what it would be like to face the challenge you have as a father, Chuck.  It's a heartbreaking situation.  I think the best course, especially given the way you closed, is to take heart in the parable of the Prodigal Son, and welcome him back home.  By your post, you clearly "get it", and it seems to me that your influence is now more important them ever for him, whether he realizes it or not.  Best wishes of success to your family, and your son in figuring out a way to ditch the chip he carries on his shoulder.

[ChuckG]

Thank you, Mark. The chip he is carrying on his shoulder is probably deeper than his Mom's or my pay grade or expertise. I welcome your words and thank you.

[BoyWonderMom]

Chuck, my heart breaks for you and mom. Such a difficult situation to be in. I agree with Mark. Definitively welcome him back. Rules and regulations need to be clear and enforced. Decide on a reasonable time for him to get a job and more importantly a plan. He needs to pick up the pieces, focus and move on. He's an adult there's so much you can do anymore. He doesn't even realize that your support is the only thing that he's got now. Try your best to separate this situation from your current routine as to minimize the disruption. The one thing he learned in nuke school is time management so hopefully it will serve him well as to make timely decisions for his new life. He's young and hopefully life will give him the opportunity to start over and redeem himself for HIMSELF. Blessings for all of you.

[ChuckG]

Thank you,

Yes, he is an adult and that point will be stressed. We will certainly watch in the first few days back home if he is treating this as a leave from the Navy (i.e. vacation) or if he is treating it like passionately finding his way in the world--looking for a job, house/apartment...etc. I am sure life and God will give him plenty of opportunities--if he sets his mind and his heart on the right course.

[Aimee and Wine]

Chuck, I cannot imagine the roller coaster of emotions you are having right now.  Kids today have been given so many wonderful opportunities and some are not able to see it.  I have no doubt that school has been difficult and frustrating, especially if the field was not a passion for him.

You asked earlier what sort of time frame might some of us give our kids in this situation- and I would like to step out on a limb and suggest a hard line for him on his return. He has been going through intensive training and schooling, he can handle a strict approach!  If he was depressed and somber- a tender assist to get back in the swing would be important, but it doesn't sound like that is his case.....

There is nothing wrong with firm boundaries - good to see you, we love you, you have 10 days to get your self a job and a place to live. Period. Good morning, you have 9 days left, how are those plans comin? You can ALWAYS provide extra help later - but if you say 60 days, chances are, on that 59th day, you will be having that - well, what is your plan now, Buddy?- conversation, while he and his friends are cleaning out the fridge during 3 am gaming competitions. 

He is an adult & has made his own adult decisions.  The hard part for us parents is stepping aside and letting the adult with the kid brain figure it out, because we know they will endure troubles.  There is no need for platitudes or instructions- just, wow, I'm sure you have thought a lot about what you will be doing now that you are home....go get `em tiger, and step back and let him have the ball so he can grow.

We (our family) has 2 stubborn and hard-headed kids (23 & 24) and 2 gentle easy going kids (25 & 22). They are charming and difficult, sweet and sour, and we love them all, and they have worn us out and made us proud, made us cry and crazy and happy and sad (sometimes all in the same day).  

I have been in a very similar place with one of our darlings, and I have much empathy for you all.  We do the best we know how to as parents - and then we get to just love them from the sidelines and let them go/grow.  I pray that you and your family can get through the next few weeks without too much turmoil & that he finds his way!  God Bless