Political discussion about the war and the leaked Afghanistan papers

[Arwen]

Navy/Army Mom posted:
I don't mean to get "political" in our group as I know we're not about that. But did y'all hear about the missing documents regarding the war
in Afghanistan? I don't yet totally understand the details surrounding
it but I found this news disturbing. My question is do y'all think we
should stay over there or get out of A'stan? I'm kind of curious
regarding how us military moms feel about it. I'm not one who believes
in giving up, but even before my sons joined the military I was leaning
towards thinking that we've been over there for too long. Generally, I
just keep my thoughts to myself on that, but lately I'm becoming more
and more curious about what people are thinking regarding this. I hope
I'm not out of line to bring it up here. I was looking around to see if
there is a group at N4M's where they discuss this issue. Maybe I'm just
discouraged with the recent news.


Army/Navy mom, I'm not sure about how to deal with the new information contained in the leaked papers.

War crimes happen in war, even on the "good guys" side. My personal feelings are that this particular war (Afghanistan) is "just," (but we never should have been in Iraq the second time). We need to do the job.  But we need to do it RIGHT. And we need to remember the lessons we learned from the Russians' attempt to invade and pacify that same country. It didn't go well for them, either.

We have to do something about the attitude, both military and civilian, that allows some soldiers to get to the point that they are capable of committing horrible acts, and to be punished to the full extent if they do. Being a US military member does not excuse murder and torture. We are supposed to be the good guys, we need to do it cleaner than the other side, or we are no better than they are. "But they were just defending our country" is not an excuse for knowingly committing murder and torture.

What is the difference between a suicide bomber killing civilians, and American soldiers gunning them down? Nothing, as far as I can tell.

My grandfather was a member of the AmeriCal Division in WWII. It was to his everlasting shame that it was members of the AmeriCal Division that committed the atrocities at Mai Lai. If he and his buddies ever got their hands on the guys who were responsible, and those who had knowledge of it and covered it up, there would have been a death sentence for all of them. They disgraced the unit, and the United States.

Did the US fail the soldiers who committed these crimes? Probably, they should never have been allowed to get to the point where they were in a mental state to be able to commit these things. But with the all-volunteer military, the anti-draft attitude and the military "shake it off, you'll be okay" way of dealing with PTSD and stress, and using chaplains as counselors (most are unqualified for the role in extreme conditions like war zones) it is no wonder they snap and kill civilians like it's a game.

It all comes down to the dehumanization of the enemy. It has always happened, in every war. "Gooks," "Jerrys," "Japs," "Commies" - "Ragheads." In order to deal with what they must in the actions of war, they have to think of those they are killing as something other than human. If they were just people with families, lives, jobs and loved ones, it would be a whole lot harder to fight a war. Especially on THEIR soil. It's one thing to be defending our home, the people we are fighting are defending theirs, and their ideals. How do you deal with that? So, those enemy "ragheads" start out as the enemy soldiers, but then you get the religion thing going too. A bunch of extremists suddenly become the whole religion.

Does any Christian here want to be lumped in with the Westboro Baptist Church or the Irish Republican Army? The "Army of God"? "Hutaree"? Most Muslims feel the same about the terrorists as you probably do about these groups.

[Pam Mom of Justin]

I can understand what you are saying Arwen but how do they know the difference. The terrorist disguise themselves in so many ways. How are we supposed to know who is good and who is not?? I definately would not want to be lumped in with Westboro Baptist Church. These people are extremist of the worst kind. I just don't understand why we are in a country of so many people who hate Americans and our kids lives are in danger and being lost to help them.

[Arwen]

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. I agree. However, in too many of these cases the soldiers certainly knew the difference, walking into homes and shooting what were clearly women and children is inexcusable. In a few cases we have tapes of the soldiers talking about it, that they KNEW there were no enemy in those homes, they just wanted to kill people. That's what's so disturbing about the recently released information - the brass knows what's going on and isn't doing anything about it.

When our soldiers break into homes and kill women and children simply because they lived in the area where a bombing took place, then the people begin to hate us. I don't blame them. We may be there to help them, but when you get a few out of control soldiers on a killing spree, not caring who gets hurt, then we very quickly become the enemy. We need to win their hearts and minds - instead to them it looks like all we're doing is killing their sisters and chilren. So they join the enemy.

Just imagine, if we were taken over by the Westboro Baptist Church, and Russia came in to help free us of their extremist grip, and suddenly their soldiers started snapping, walking into homes and killing women and children because a Westboro terrorist blew up one of their tanks, how would you view Russian soldiers? They certainly wouldn't look much like liberators anymore.

[Pam Mom of Justin]

I do understand what you are saying. Killing innocents is definately wrong on both sides however I do feel Americans have more feelings about this. we don't have the hatred for them as they do us. I suppose if i was a soldier getting shot at constanly and being mistreated that I would have some harsh feelings. i pray every day that God will make both sides understand each other and that we could all just freakin learn to live together and respect each other. but I don't think that will ever happen.