College credits and entering NROTC?

[Arwen]

My daughter is a sophomore in high school and is in NJROTC.She hasn't yet decided if she wants to go for enlisted Nuke, like her dad, or to become an engineering officer.

She has a major decision to make in the next few months.

She has been invited to enter a program where she will attend the local community college for her junior and senior years. She gets credit for both high school and college at the same time. When she graduates from high school she will also receive her associate of science transfer degree.

The university she wants to attend treats graduates of the program as freshmen for entrance consideration and requirements, but once she begins classes at the university she will get junior status. at that time she will not only will she have two full years of college under her belt, but also 15 credits of Naval Science and credits from her current AP classes.

I know that NROTC requires applicants to have freshmen status to get the scholarship. So, would the Navy consider her to be a freshman for application purposes, like the college, or would they consider her to be a junior?

I know she could complete a degree then apply to OCS, but without that full-ride scholarship we can't afford a 4-year university - even with grants and loans. Her only option at that point would be to enter as enlisted and put off the rest of her education for years.

Any ideas or advice would be appreciated.

[BunkerQB]

I would suggest she start an application for the Naval Academy ASAP.  Typically, out of 13,000+ applicants, the Academy offers appointments to 1400 or so. About 1300 take the appointment. Numbers off top of my head for a 5 years ago - may be different now. Ivy League level education. Very prestigious. No tuition. Room and board included. In addition, from day 1 she is considered active and gets paid - first year about $700 per month. Your daughter sounds like a perfect candidate.  My younger son went to the United States Military Academy (West Point) for two years. Private message me if you prefer.

[Arwen]

She had a rough start - a couple of Ds on her transcript in her freshman year. Actually, one was an F that she attended a "credit recovery" class that transformed it into a D, and also struggled in the basic health class (due to boredom and freshman transfer shock). She also hates social studies, so her grades there hover around a C due to lack of interest/effort. We're talking full-on math and science geek here. So she needs some time to prove on her transcript that she is the elite student that she is/can be before she can consider even NROTC. I seriously doubt that any of the Academies would even look at her with those Ds and Cs, no matter how high her test results.

Also, how would one of the Academies look at a new high school grad who already has two-plus years of college under her belt?

[BunkerQB]

I won't be so sure about that. The cadet/midshipmen needs to be under 23 years of age on the date she/he first arrives at basic training. Since she is a math/science geek, she'll probably be very good in the nuke field. This year (could have been last year) is the first time women have been assigned to subs (boomers).  She could also apply to the academies as an enlisted sailor. They reserve a number of slots for prior enlisted. In fact, there are prep schools associated with the Academies to help these cadets adjust to the rigors of academic life. They go to the prep school for one year, they do the same physical training. My son went to West Point at 17 (almost 18). There were cadets who were 21 and 22. Academically and physically, my son was a the top of his class but he had problems with all the rules and restrictions. He would freely admit that he was probably too young emotionally when he started. He said if he had to do over again, he would have gone out in the field for a few years first. Many of the leaders at the academies are prior enlisted.  Much depends on her SATs, AP scores. 

BTW, check out the NUPOC program - it pays up to $40K per year for tuition/living expenses. My son didn't decide to join the Navy until after we paid for 4 years of college. He was a nuke officer on a sub. If he had applied and had been accepted in his sophomore year, he could've saved us 50K. Yes, he got a lovely bonus when he joined. No, we didn't get to share it. :P   He finished his commitment this March, came home found a great job, got married and bought a house - all within 5 months. He is definitely ahead of the curve by joining the Navy.

By the way, I am in Silicon Valley - there are many who are superior in the tech area who were horrible in "social studies" - including my two sons. I actually would encourage her to seek out companies that might provide her for financial assistance for tuition, then maybe between loans and summer work she'll have enough for living expenses.  Has she talked to MicroSoft since you are in WA?  I have several clients who make 175 to 200K per year and never finished college. And there are many programmers who are employed w/o college degrees. There is a push to get more women into engineering majors - your daughter should take advantage of it. We have many women who are in top positions in all areas (CEOs, CFOs) but the numbers are still 75/25 (at best estimate) men/women in the technical fields.

Arwen, I apologize for rambling - my hip has been killing my lately - old age sucks. And I could tell you stories about my two sons that would raise your hair. LOL.

[Arwen]

Erin has decided to go for the Naval Academy, with NROTC as a backup. Her grades are improving, we expect her to have very, very strong SAT scores, and she has a lot of good, academic extracurriculars. She talked to her NJROTC advisors, and they're working with her for what she needs to do.

[lasersailor]

The Naval Academy will not have the problem of previous college credits as a 4 year ROTC scholarship will have. Contact a Blue & Gold Officer to get her acquainted with the selection criteria the Academy will be looking for and start early. I had several classmates at USNA that had over a year of college when they started. It doesn't matter how much previous college, they will be at the Academy for 4 years, but in my day, some midshipmen were taking graduate courses at civilian universities in their 1st Class (senior) year and a few went on to complete their graduate degrees before going to their warfare specialty. It was 2011 or 2012 US News & World Reports, I believe, that had ALL the Service Academies were in the top 10 of Colleges/Universities with the best Engineering programs.

My daughter attended a "Middle College" program in San Jose, CA area with 130 students total in their junior and senior high years. Upon graduation, she exceeded the 30 college credits limit even though almost all the courses went to meet high school graduation requirements. Because of this, she was notified she is not eligible for a 4 year NROTC scholarship even though she is in her first semester at a highly ranked polytechnical institute and they accepted none of her previous college credits. In her Middle College program, unless the course was only for the Middle College students and not open to others, the course goes on the transcript as college credit. These included PE courses, a course on getting into college, Intermediate Algebra, Biology, etc. Courses from the community college do not necessarily conform to California Education Code requirements for high school students. Colleges are accredited by a few accepted accreditation associations and their requirements are more subjective. Thus the course taken from a high school will probably have different content than taken from a community college.

It sounds like your daughter has a specific university in mind and expects that the college credits she earns in the Middle College program will be accepted at that institution and will be applied to her degree. Unless there is an agreement in place between the program college and the specific university, this might not be the case. Normally the university would reserve the right to evaluate previous college courses taken to ensure they are college level and that they are applicable to the degree program which the term widely used is "transferable". When one applies for a 4 year NROTC scholarship, the screening committee cannot say which college credits are transferable and their selection precept (checklist) eliminates candidates that have over 30 college credits. After the scholarship is awarded, then the applicant must be accepted by an institution with a NROTC program and have an opening so the applicant might not get their first choice of the 5 colleges that they put on their preference list.

The Middle College program is not for everyone. Courses are normally selected as most colleges so there will probably be considerable time during the day between classes. It is an open campus, students are expected to make their own travel arrangements, parents are not notified if students miss class, etc. There is not the social peer pressure as in a high school. Students are treated more like adults and are given more liberty to perform or fail. There are not the social events as proms, no yearbooks, normally students have to be 18 for college sports programs, and parents might not be able to get progress reports for college courses. Still, my daughter thought the experience was better than being in a traditional high school.

Good luck and I hope this helps in determining what might be best for your daughter. There is no college credit limit if your daughter might want to apply for a  2 year NROTC scholarship for the last two years of her bachelor degree. Be proactive. Setting goals early and exploring ahead of time will help identify obstacles before they become roadblocks.

[Arwen]

She has six colleges she plans to apply to. We went through the NROTC application process with our son (he did not get in), so I do know how it works. He royally screwed up in his senior year, and didn't even graduate with his class (intentionally, it turns out, so that I couldn't force him to walk in his graduation ceremony) so even if he had been accepted, he would have been denied later.

In our case, there is a specific agreement between the community college and the university she has as her top choice, and a few of her others as well. The high school and college also work very closely to make sure that the students take what they need.

There are multiple options, and another is for high school students to attend the college for vocational training and graduate with one or more job certificates. However, when they sign up for the college program they must designate their intended educational outcome. If they say they want to transfer to a university, they are only allowed those courses that transfer. If they aren't educationally ready for the transferable classes they can't take that subject at the college, they have to take those courses at the high school. If the goal is vocational, they only take the courses that are part of that program.

In our district, students who choose to take the full-time college option, they are still eligible for high school sports, music, and dances. Progress reports for parents aren't an option at all, and records can only be released to parents with written permission from their students.

Also, I don't think Erin will be able to graduate in 2 years, even with her transfer credits. Still needing upper division core credits, NROTC and engineering school, I expect it to take at least 3 years for her to get her bachelors degree.

[lasersailor]

The Navy instruction on NROTC program states 4, 3, 2 year scholarships. I recommend you call Tom Glazer
Naval Service Training Command
Officer Development
NROTC Selection & Placement (OD21)
Comm: 850-452-2343
The 30 college credit limit is for those seeking a 4 year NROTC scholarship. Mr. Glazer is from the office that actually screens NROTC scholarship applicants and would be more knowledgeable than local NROTC advisors.

[JM]

Not sure when wrote this post but sounds like
Your daughter has a good solid background
Have you thought of the ENG program at the
Navel Academy in Annapolis MD
First thing is to contact your Blue and Gold officer
And the admission office of the Academy
Good luck
JM

[brojo]

My son is supposed to go to A school in Charleston for Nuke at the end of August.
How long before he can go back to college & do NROTC to finish his degree?

[CryptoDad]

You are tacking questions onto a discussion that ended 2 years ago. Suggest you start a new discussion.