An interesting topic. Women in SEALS...any thoughts?

[Concernedad]

Debate Swirls over Female Navy SEALs

Feb 02, 2013

The Virginian-Pilot| by Mike Hixenbaugh

A bruised and bloodied female recruit pulls herself to her feet, spits out a mouthful of blood and shouts an unladylike insult at an abusive master chief, instantly earning respect from her male teammates as she becomes the nation's first female commando.

The dramatic scene from "G.I. Jane" suggests that integrating women into a special operations unit is as simple as finding a physically fit woman willing to shave her head and put up with misogynistic jerks.

That was just a movie. This is real life.

Special operations chief Adm. Bill McRaven told a Washington audience this week that he supports allowing women into elite military units, including the SEALs. The comments, made days after defense officials ended the ban on women serving in ground combat, ignited fresh debate among the ranks over whether women could -- or should -- serve alongside America's elite warriors.

There's long been skepticism over whether women can meet the grueling physical standards of special operations. Of those fit enough to make it to Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training -- an achievement in its own right -- only about 1 in 3 of them become Navy commandos.

McRaven, a former SEAL commander, said it's crucial that women be held to the same high standards as men and that he believes some "will do a phenomenal job."

McRaven has until 2016 to report back to the secretary of defense with a plan to integrate his forces or apply for an exception to continue to restrict women.

His comments drew mixed reactions among former SEALs reached by a reporter this week. Several flatly rejected the idea of bringing women into the force; others said they were open to the idea as long as standards were not lowered.

Even those who oppose allowing women to join the teams concede that a select few would probably make the cut.

"I'm confident there are women who can pass the physical standards; there are women I'm sure that can pass the mental standards," former SEAL officer Cade Courtley said. "But why would you add an element into the most elite special forces that could cause it to be less effective?"

Courtley, who spun his military experience into a reality show and book about survival tactics, imagined what would happen if a woman had been on the team of Virginia Beach-based SEALs tapped to take out Osama bin Laden and learned she was pregnant days before the raid.

"I'm not saying SEALs can't adapt," he said, "but why mess with something that's working?"

Courtley also questioned whether women should train alongside men in humbling circumstances. He described pushing through "hell week," a brutal five days of continuous training during the initial phase of BUD/S.

"At about night number four, when we're lying on metal grates in nothing but our swim shorts, I'm spooning this guy next to me, shivering to death and just hoping that he has to pee because I'll at least get a couple seconds of warmth," said Courtley, who became a SEAL in 1995 and left the service in 2001. "That's how far down we go. Are we really going to add women to that?"

Retired SEAL Don Shipley runs Extreme SEAL Experience in rural Chesapeake, a weeklong program for young men who aspire to join special operations forces. He has refused to open the course to women, despite several requests, because he fears it would deter men from signing up.

He expects the same would happen if women were integrated into SEAL training.

"You cannot even get the majority of the strongest guys in the nation to get through the training," Shipley said. "You're going to deter some those guys from coming out, and for what?"

Larry Bailey, a former SEAL commander who retired in 1990 after 27 years, said even if a woman meets the rigorous physical and mental requirements, she would not be suited for the job "by virtue of her anatomy." The 73-year-old described a scenario in which a female SEAL and her team are swimming toward a target through shark-infested Caribbean waters.

"What happens if her female menstrual cycle starts?" Bailey said. "The sharks will be swarming. That sounds ridiculous, but I use that to make a point. Men and women aren't built the same."

Bailey's hard-line stance doesn't necessarily reflect the views among younger special operations troops, many of whom have served alongside women during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Kevin Maurer, a journalist and Virginia Beach native who has embedded numerous times with special operations units over the past decade, said he has seen commandos come to respect women who often join them on dangerous missions as helicopter pilots or with cultural support teams.

"With special operations guys, everyone earns their place," said Maurer, who co-wrote "No Easy Day" with an ex-SEAL who participated in the bin Laden raid. "It's about earning the green beret, earning the trident. If you can earn it, and if you're held to the same standards, then you will earn that respect."

Lisa Barbarics, a retired Navy chief, worked with SEAL teams as a communications specialist during the late-1990s. She said she felt like she was welcomed as part of the Naval Special Warfare community, but she has doubts about whether a woman would be accepted as a SEAL. She questioned whether many women could make it to that point.

"Having worked with those guys, there may be a few women out there who are capable of meeting those standards," Barbarics said. "I doubt there are very many of them."

One recently retired SEAL who served on deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan said gender shouldn't matter. He shared his views with a reporter on the condition that his name not be published.

Women can be "as ruthless and driven as dudes," the ex-SEAL said in an email, "and once they have proven that they can pass the minimum standard, they should be allowed to roll with us."

He acknowledged that his views are not typical of most of his former teammates. But as long as standards aren't lowered, he said the training could be amended to allow women to participate without needlessly being forced into provocative situations. The change wouldn't be unprecedented.

"When I went through training, we did every run in jungle boots, and we lost 25 percent of the class to shin-splints or leg fractures," the retired SEAL said.

Now, SEALs do some training in running shoes -- and no one accuses them of being soft.

[Concernedad]

Nope, but I certainly have an opinion on you.

[Saipan]

As a Navy veteran, and female at that, I don't think we should mess with what's already been working for so long.  I definitely think that there are some females that can do it and maybe even one or two that can do it better, but I think that not all SEAL's will be accepting of it and that alone will hinder the operating tempo of a Team.  In order for these Teams to work so well together and get the job done, they have to live and breathe for one another out in combat and if even just one resents having a female onboard it will mess up their dynamics.  Perhaps there can be a compromise and females can be trained to do certain jobs to aid the SEAL's and still earn their pin with Intel or something while not actually being in direct combat with the males.  I think that would be an acceptable compromise.  What do you think?

[sailorwifenmom]

I agree with you.  Also, they do allow females in SEAL support roles.  My son does intel support for one of the teams, including deploying with them (but not actual infiltration) and his LPO is a woman.

[Concernedad]

I would say women deserve the right to try. However, there cannot be a lower level of testing to qualify. If a woman can make it through the same trials and vigors the men do, they have earned it. The standards must be maintained.

I would also think there are missions where having a woman on board might be helpful.

[sailorwifenmom]

The problem is that the pt standards for women are not the same.  For example, an 18 yr old woman, to score an outstanding, needs to do do 102 curl ups, 47 push ups  and a 12 min. 30 second run.  A male has to do 102 curl ups, 86 push ups and a 9 minute 50 second run.  Running a mile and a half.  That's an "A" to put it in "school speak".  A MINIMUM for SEALS is 12 min 30 second 500 yard swim, 50 curl ups, 50 push ups, 10 pull ups, 10 min 30 sec mile and a half run.  That is comparing the "top" with  "lowest".   Even for other special programs that require higher physical standards, women's standards are lower.  

This also doesn't address issues such as the requirements for separate berthing for men and women that just is not always possible (which would rarely be possible on a mission).  They cannot require men and women to share living space, even temporarily.  

Nor does it address the reproductive issues.  On a ship, when a woman gets pg and can't deploy, the crew is large enough to absorb the loss in manning  (they do not replace her usually, they usually "gap" it).  A SEAL team is too small to do this, and is needed to be a bonded unit without last minute substitutons.  Nor are they legally allowed to tell women they are not allowed to get pg during a tour at a Duty Station (as a SEAL, it would basically be ever).  They tried this once (the Marines tried this and it was found illegal).

As a female Navy Vet, I understand the desire to serve.  But I also get that there are more issues at stake than a woman's desire to be a SEAL that needs to be considered.  It's about the best way to accomplish the mission.

[Saipan]

I agree with you, I'm glad that we are both female Sailors that can see the bigger picture rather than just say "women can do everything!"  As stated before, my biggest concern aside from the PT points you made, is sticking a female in with males who may resent her and not being a "bonded" team as you also pointed out.  Most SEAL's are a roughneck kind of crowd and I'm sure that no one can be 100% positive that all SEAL's will be accepting; some will some won't.  I don't believe it's fair to intrude on their brotherhood and ask them to adapt to so many more challenges like adding females to the mix when they already give so much as it is.  I say we create more support roles than what are already offered to allow females to contribute.  Or, allow the SEAL community as a whole to decide on this and not leave it up to Big Navy who just wants to be viewed as PC.  Let the ones who'll be affected the most choose and if they choose yes, then at least we'll have a starting point.

[sailorwifenmom]

Exactly.

[Concernedad]

LOL! Well I'm sure THIS isn't the way lady hamilton saw this progressing! Here I am defending the women and a couple women disagreeing.

Let me say again, the only way I see a woman being allowed into the SEALS is if she meets the EXACT same standards. I realize the requirements are lower for men and women on the standard physical testing, however, the men who want to be SEALS have their own standard, and I think the women should have that very same standard. Obviously, this is not a group that can slow down for it's lowest common denominator. Every member of the team must be elite, no exceptions. In my opinion, that means, a woman gets pregnant, she is removed from the team. She dresses with the men, she lives with the men. This is one group that cannot make exceptions for anyone. Period.

With all that said, IF a woman can actually qualify for such rigorous standards, I think she should have the right to try.

I guess I see their living together differently than if they're spending months living together on a sub or somewhere that affords them free time to frolick.

[Anti M]

We just aren't there as a society with coed berthing and bathing.  And anyone can frolic anywhere, trust me.  Zero degree freezer at boot camp Orlando for one.  Ah, young lust.

But I'd think if a woman qualifies, there are certain roles which would be appropriate which were closed to females before.   

[Saipan]

WHAT?!?! Anti M, how naughty!  Say it isn't so. LOL

[Anti M]

Hey, you were a sailor, surely you knew "that couple".  But that's a different thread, and one which surely would give the moms heart attacks.

[sailorwifenmom]

I see what you're saying, but the thing is, those are a lot of "ifs".  I don't see the Navy having the same pt standards, even for elite programs, anytime soon.  That would weaken the ability of the team, and would increase the risk for all.  There are several laws in place that say they cannot -even for short periods of time - require males and females to share intimate living quarters - for the protection of ALL involved, not just the women.  There isn't a way around that.  And there's also a lot of factors with the pg situation that are a lot more complicated than simply removing them from the team.  Issues like what that does to the manning structure, what about pg that is early stages and isn't discovered until they are deployed (they aren't just sent out to respond to situations, then come home, they "forward deploy" for several months - this also goes to the berthing mentioned before), she now has to go home, leaving her team "a man down".  On a ship or sub, there's enough crew to absorb that "blow to manning", a SEAL team can't do that as well, again, putting the team as a whole at risk.

In a perfect world, where unplanned pgs didn't occur, where men and women were able to live together as unaware of the differences as babies, and where political correctness didn't say that it was sexist to hold women to the same physical standards, then yes, a woman has a place on a SEAL team (though in  that world, we probably wouldn't need SEALS :-)  )

One of the biggest things the SEALS do that makes them so unique is how they go so far above and beyond even the other Sailors in the "Ship, shipmate, self" concept.  Their mission, then their team, are more important than themselves.  A woman who truly embraces that and fully "ets it", in my opinion, would understand that in the reality we have, with the constraints in place, her presence  would jeopardize that, and wouldn't want to do that.  A woman who disregarded these things, and insisted on being on the team anyway, in my opinion, is one who doesn't get this concept fully, and who puts herself before the mission or the team, and that is not the kind of person you want out there.  (This would go for a man, too, if the genders were reversed.)

There are many support roles that are also challenging and that are just as critical, that are in direct support of the teams, that are open to women.